The State of PMU's Economy

I think we all know there are some problems plaguing this game’s economy.

Very few items breach a street value of more than 200k nowadays. But, to anyone with even a super basic understanding of how inflation works, that’s rather bizarre. With how easily money can be generated from nothing (as opposed to traded between players) you’d expect wild inflation…

Problem 1: Overabundance

My proposal to solve this first problem is twofold; to start off, it is important valuable endgame items such as the Miracle Chest, Golden Mask, Exp. All etc are difficult to obtain or their value will take a nosedive eventually no matter what.

My first suggestion to help rectify the dwindling rarity of items such as the Miracle Chest and friends, is to crack down on “generalist” dungeons and make sure items intended to be sought-after endgame aren’t just picked up on the side during training, and require intentional investment to obtain.

While simply altering things like endbox drop rates will slow the creation of items, I think the most important thing to do is to remove overlap. What do I mean? Well, let’s look at Sky Fortress as an example. Running it yields several rewards to the player. It’s very easy to come out of the dungeon with a net gain of resources, sometimes an MC or golden mask, money (including items that exist solely to generate money from kecleon) AND it’s one of the best training dungeons in the game. If you frequently run, say, SF for experience, you will slowly amass raw, freshly-minted cash, miracle chests, and golden masks on the side. In fact, even if you’re there specifically to hunt one of the two major endbox items, you might wind up with the other while you’re at it. And this absolutely kills their value by flooding the market with unwanted, excess items.

As for a dungeon already in the game that doesn’t suffer from this problem nearly as badly, let’s look at Tanren Chambers. Sure, the variety of rewards available here is unrivaled, but their market value has stood the test of time much better than other items. Why? Because there’s an opportunity cost to picking a specific route. Want the Lens of Truth? You’re not going to be seeing any miracle chests, or vice-versa. This applies similarly to currency-based dungeons like DD and DS as well. Though DS in particular could benefit from having the Scavenger’s Charm, X-Ray Charm, and Treasure Specs available instead through Gabeedle and not the endboxes, as the amount of people running the dungeon for Gible or just exp have caused tons of these items to flood the market.

Overall, the point I’m trying to get across is that the more rewards (be they exp, money, or items) there are for running a specific dungeon, the less valuable each individual reward becomes.

Of course, reducing the influx of items into the game won’t help much if there’s a massive backlog of extra items already in the economy beforehand. And so we come to part two of my first proposal… “Collector’s” and “Vintage” item variants.

The obtaining of “Collector’s” tier items would be a new permanent addition. Simply trade in a number of items (my idea was something between 3-5) for a currency specific to that item, which can then be used to buy the collector’s variant of that item. (Perhaps also along with a hefty cash fee) Collector items become undroppable/untradeable, but also unlosable.

“Vintage” items would be similar, but with a few differences. Unlike their lesser counterparts, they would require significantly more of their base items to be sacrificed to create them (perhaps even as many as 10-20, with a higher poke cost as well if that’s included) and only be available for creation a limited time after their release. The trade-off, would be that while they keep the benefit of being unlosable like collector items, they can be traded between players, even after they’re no longer obtainable.

This would help fill the void of high-tier items in the economy for players with leaderboard-worthy nest eggs to actually buy, while also providing a motive for players to destroy items with an overabundance in the market today.

Problem 2: Inflation

Now let’s move onto the second issue plaguing the economy, and the disaster it will cause if not addressed around the same time as the item overabundance… Money. Or more specifically, the obscene rate at which cash currently just appears out of thin air.

All MMOs have to grapple with the problem of inflation, but in PMU it’s absolutely out of control.

By far, the best way to make money right now isn’t to trade with other players at all, but run certain dungeons repeatedly for cash and relic drops, dumping more and more cash into an already stagnant market. While money sinks do help, you can’t stop a flood using your bathtub’s drain. The rate at which money is injected into the economy needs to be reduced or the moment supply drops reasonably close to demand inflation is going to spiral rapidly out of control.

There are very few dungeons in the game that actually COST the player to run, and those that are actually light on resources like apples and ethers usually provide enough raw poke or items that can be sold to Kecleon in order to just pay for enough supplies to immediately run it again. If a dungeon can be run over and over again with resources found within itself, and provides an incentive such as a high exp yield to do so, it probably shouldn’t be spitting out fat stacks of cash on top of that. Or we run into the problem dungeons like MM, CCh, and MJ previously had. I know the changes to these dungeons’ payouts weren’t popular, but after some contemplation I can agree they were sorely needed.

To start, I think several dungeons’ poke and relic drops still need to be looked at, the iceberg dungeons and SF come to mind immediately, but they aren’t the only ones. However, individual dungeon payouts pale in comparison to the real elephant in the room…

Pay day. Oh no, pay day… 150P+ per KO is ludicrously overpowered. There’s not much else that needs to be said, just train a Persian or Liepard and you’ll be swimming in cash before long. Halving the payout might honestly still not be enough, if you ask me this move’s poke generation needs to be on the border of not being viable at all, but right now it’s probably the fastest way to amass wealth in the game, AND it can be stacked with existing high-payout dungeons! So if we’re going to see any improvement on the influx of cash being injected into the economy, it’s number 1 on the list of things that need adjustment.

Whew. I know that’s a mammoth of a read and I apologize, but I wanted to be as thorough as possible.

Agreed with most of what you said. I really think that having a “Sink” to dump these items into would greatly improve the rarity and desirability of these items. It’d improve the economy since many of them would get deleted and due to the demand, many players would begin to run the end game dungeons with the intention of getting of the items for either the purpose of building up for a “Collector/Vintage” variant or simply selling it on the market.

The point about training runs is good, with how many times I ran SF Fire to train my Omastar I really just made so much money (purely from Poke pick up on the ground) and got a huge amount of goodies along the way, mostly from end boxes.

It’d be very nice to see items be made harder to obtain and some kind of sink implemented.

pretty good topic where i think the scenarios from back then and now haven’t change. i think in this consecutive topic(wrt sinks) i’ve been using joy’s egg hatching thing after every HC run outside of convenience, and i’ve probably dumped like 200k into it so far.

i think the question here wrt PMU’s approach is if it should be self sustainable or if there actually needs to be a marketing economy; because you can basically farm everything yourself if you need to given a high level and access to such dungeons. i think with a game like PMU where it doesnt really take too much to reach endgame, having everything being farmable probably suits it more because the progression necessary to reach a higher level is subsequently lower than a lot of MMOs, but that’s just theory.

p sure relics are the most sustainable source of income by far but could be wrong, idt payday’s all That but someone can do the math and tell me otherwise ig. idt what i have said has changed from back then

I agree with most of what you said, and I can appreciate the attempt to balance the economy without punishing wealthy players. XP I also apologize in advance for lack of formatting and quoting, again I’m posting from a phone.

The only problem I find with Collectors and Vintage tier items is the existence of escape ropes, which kinda voids the purpose of the “unlosable” aspect. If I have a rope basically everything in my inventory is already unlosable. Heck, if I have an escape orb, a full team, and I play it safe, the same applies provided none of them get sticky or I’m not an idiot and head to a dungeon without either. XP This isn’t a rag on escape items or careful play, as players should be rewarded for those things and punished for not doing those things.

I do like the concept of exchanging items for other items a la a raw materials system. That could be a way to help mitigate the inflation/economy in general. I think that in order to fix the issue, perhaps MCs and rare items of their ilk should just be undroppable/tradable by default, and you can spend them to to make a Miracle Chest EX or what have you, which could be a bag item instead of a team item. And you need 5 Miracle Chests and a hefty amount of money (maybe 150-250k?) to make it a Miracle Chest EX. The MC-EX would obviously also be undroppable/tradable/losable. This would also mean decreasing the drop rate of Miracle Chests.

Wonder Chests can still be tradable/sellable as they aren’t as rare and this lets new players have access to an exp boosting item from the player market. Perhaps the Wonder Chest EX (again untradable/undroppable/unlosable) could make it stack with MC? Maybe 5 Wonder Chests can be turned into a Miracle Chest as an alternative?

Of course, if we’re not careful, this could also make money nigh obselete. Again droprates and such will have to be put into consideration.

I like the concept of certain dungeons being ran for a certain dedicated resource (i.e, run this dungeon for money, run that dungeon if you want x reward, etc). I definitely think some min-maxing/opportunity cost dungeons in terms of resources would help.

However, I’m still on the fence about dungeons costing resources to run. SF for example is a 99 floor dungeon and that’s just if you beat it. If you haven’t beaten it that’s 396 (99 * 4) floors you have to go through. I don’t think a lot of players are gonna run a dungeon that long if they come out at a net loss. In theory, a more difficult dungeon should certainly carry more risk, but definitely carry a hefty reward that comes with it. If the reward is paltry, then the risk isn’t worth it, and no one’s gonna run it.

You could argue that 6* missions are definitely worth the risk, but that’s a one-time reward, along with Deino, Fletch, or any other rare pokemon in that dungeon. The rest of the dungeon is just great EXP and rewards.

I think in order to solve the Payday Problem, Payday’s money payout needs to be either nerfed to not be worth it, literally change the formula to be 5 Poke per KO regardless of level and damage inflicted, or not give out money at all. This will of course cause several people to shelve their Persians and Liepards, but they can still always run a dungeon with a high pay out of money, so I don’t think that’s a big deal. This coming from a player with more than a mill in the bank and a Meowth of his own.

I think that we should try and capitalize things that will virtually almost always be in demand, which are: Exp and Pokemon.

One of the money sink ideas I had was a stand that let you exchange a pokemon (or a certain amount of said pokemon) for the same pokemon of the opposite gender (say, 5 male combees for a female combee), on top of a 250-500k fee. The price could also be adjusted for how rare male/females are.

For those of you about to say that there’d be no reason to grind dungeons for a specific gender, well, the chance would still be there. So if you don’t have that much money there’s still a reason to hunt for a specific gender through the dungeon, that’s why it costs pokemon and money. People still have to go through the dungeon and grind to get the multiple recruits, so there’s still a grind/luck aspect to it. Not only that but it’s expensive enough to drain some pockets.

Admittedly this sink is kinda niche, but the name change money sink exists, so if that can exist, so can this one.

I also thought of a stand where players can give 500k to get a 20% exp boost for the week. You’d definitely have to work it out so people can’t profit from it, maybe make it a buff that boosts exp rate but lowers gold spawn rate? Or maybe you can put the stand in front of popular training dungeons and make it to where it only applies to those specific dungeons? Maybe it can take the form of a non-droppable, non-storable, non-tradable item that automatically deletes itself once a week has past? Attach an effect like “poke/gold items/relics will not appear whilst this item is held.” For memes you could have it turn into a plain seed at the end of the week.

An alternative would be to have a universal donation pool with a goal of 25 million poke or something. Players can donate however much they want, but the miniumum is 50k. If we reach the goal of 25 million poke within the month, then next month everyone who contributed gets an exp boost of 25% or something. Again we’d have to set it up so there’s no profit. Also, while you can make multiple donations and donate however much you want, donating more than 50k doesn’t net you a longer or extra boost, but it helps the community reach the goal, so there’s a bit of a community aspect to it. If we don’t reach the goal, then make the exp boost 5% for a month, that way people haven’t wasted their money.

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I’m thinking about the technical complexity of this and I’m not sure how efficient it would be depending on which items vintage and and collector’s status would apply to.

Could you give an example of an item with these types of variants and from start to finish lay out how much it would cost in both invested time and currency to get them?

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“Collector’s” Miracle Chest
First trade Miracle Chests to an NPC for “Miracle Chest Coins”, then trade 3 “Miracle Chest Coins” plus 50,000p for a “Collector’s” Miracle Chest. This chest has some minor benefit over the normal ones used to create it, but cannot be traded. The only way to get it is to buy or otherwise obtain Miracle Chests from other players to create it yourself.

(Note: This may be better accomplished by your own suggestion regarding a shift towards mechanics built around item maintenance over risk of item loss. This could easily be merged into, or replaced by such a system instead)

“Vintage” Miracle Chest
First trade Miracle Chests to an NPC for “Miracle Chest Coins”, then trade 10 “Miracle Chest Coins” plus 500,000p for a “Vintage” Miracle Chest. This chest has some minor benefit over the normal ones used to create it, but unlike the “Collector’s” variant CAN be traded. Additionally, the ability to create a “Vintage” tier item is not permanently available.

The purpose of “Vintage” items, rather than providing a permanent sink like the above “Collector’s” items, is to remove a large chunk of existing items at once early on, and also create some high-tier items for the market to play with as a byproduct.

(If your aforementioned suggestions go in, they could also have extremely high if not outright infinite durability)

It’s also worth noting that the item rarities of “Collector’s” and “Vintage” are lifted straight from TF2. Some other, more original names would probably be a good idea. I just haven’t had any great ideas myself. The number of items required for fusion, as well as the poke costs, are also just examples I made up on the spot.

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Just adding more difficulty to the game? Why do people complain about inflation and money all the time? This issue is mainly related to people who literally spend tons of hours on this game and get bored after achieving pretty much everything. For casual players, which are like 95% of PMU players, being able to actually get rare items is important and none of them have nowhere near 1mil poke, so there is no problem really. We’re just talking about an elite of players who have been playing the game >1000h and have millions in their accounts. I don’t see why that is a problem.

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I’m unsure of what you mean by “adding more difficulty.” To which part of the suggestion are you referring? What I’ve proposed has been specifically designed to provide more opportunity for use of resources and increase diversity of dungeon loot rather than forcefully take away what players already have.

Players who invest more time in a game will nearly always progress at a much faster rate than those who don’t.

I agree it’s important to make sure both groups are enjoying themselves, but you appear to be advocating for the game to be less rewarding to those who put more effort in, so as to make sure that those who don’t or are unable to don’t feel left behind? It’s possible for those only seeing some of what the game has to offer to enjoy themselves, whereas someone who has effectively done it all and has nothing meaningful left to work towards has very little reason to keep playing.

Do you need to complete the entire pokedex in a main series game to enjoy it? No, of course not. But if the pokedex were not a feature, that would be one less goal for players to work towards and thus a lower maximum investment of time into the game.

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The exact implementation of vintage and collector’s items could be a little rough from an implementation perspective. Every item type and currency would have to be pre-made and scripted which means a fair bit of duplication. I think it’s an interesting idea though. Might have to dust off TF2 for inspiration

In the meantime there’s still the other suggestions mentioned here, like dealing with Payday and the over abundance of rewards in certain dungeons. (Though they might be better isolated in separate threads :wink:)

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Yeah, maybe rather than jerryrigging existing mechanics it might need systems built from the ground up. The currencies are really only something I came up with as I assumed that would be simpler than designing an entirely new mechanic.

I should also note these were only loosely inspired by TF2, though.

Kirk’s already halved Payday’s output, actually. As for dungeons, there are quite a few I’m aware of and several I intend to investigate that may have some skewed/overlapping rewards. Shall I go over them one-by-one and create threads for each, or throw them all into one?

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The more focused the thread, the easier it is to track and handle for us and anyone else reading. Generally I recommend multiple threads, though it can also depend on how related the things are.

It’s of course fine to space them out over time if needed. In the end it’s up to you. :okpyuku:

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Good to know. I just made a thread analyzing Pay Day’s nerf.

I already made my statements there, but I thought I’d add that Pay Day is more of a benefit for those players who are actually willing to invest their time training a Pokémon solely for money-making. Only four Pokémon on PMU can learn it, and only two actually get SATB from it. I don’t think the casual player will ever invest time getting a Pay Day Pokémon since the dungeons themselves already have a great payout alone. Many players prefer having a Speed Boost Pokémon and just breezing through the dungeon to get faster money than using Pay Day 'mons, especially when getting the Relic items.

A real change to Pay Day would be having it only be determined by the Level of Enemy Pokémon. That way, it wouldn’t be overwhelming. That, and having it scale based on dungeon and not from the level of the player would be best so players don’t rush through Pebble Cave or some early dungeon with their Level 100s and get fast cash.

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