this was an idea started by me on the ODP pmu chat. bear with me, most things will be a copy and past from the chat. Others such as Sciz and Ana helped add on to this.
i thought of a cool game, maybe we could have a possible tower defense mini-game,
Messy Summary
no moves allowed, you can only equip items to throw/eat items that inflict damage.
1 tile will be blocking us from the main path to prevent people to just stand in the way of npcs walking.
The items that will be used to defeat these evil pokemon(or outlaws) will be:
Thorns/Sticks
Rocks/Pebbles
possible Blast Seeds as a rare spawn/1 time spawn.
The evil pokemon(or outlaws) can inflict damage to us by the use of their moves or even by using the same items at us.
To restore our health, oran berries will spawn somewhere on the map.
The main goal is to protect whatever we are protecting from the baddies. these can be:
Items
A Pokémon
An Exit. (breaking out a jail, gotta stop them)
A more organized summary of the mini game
So everyone spawns at one point in the map, and there will be warps leading you to different sections of the pathway you are along. The Items you need to fight will be placed randomly and will most likely respawn via timer. The bad pokemon will spawn/come out of a stair case or a hole, or whatever floats your boat. They will follow the path until the end. randomly attacking players as it goes. As it attacks, you need to watch your health. the Outlaws will be coming in waves, so running around the map to regain health might be your downside, it can either get you hit by another outlaw’s attack or this could even let a outlaw slip by and by pass everyone else. To solve this, oran berries will spawn somewhere on the map. Just hope no one hogs them all. But they respawn via timer so don’t worry.
You know the final wave is coming when the pokemon start to attack more often then before. Lastly there will be a type of boss pokemon with buffs and deals a good amount of damage. So beware on your team’s set up before the waves start to get more serious.
Once the boss is defeated, the game is over. You Won :!!: :!!:
RULES
Now that you read the messy Selection let me state the rules here;
NO moves are allowed to be used inside the map. There will PP-zero traps at the entrance to prevent this.
NO items. The only items you need for this game WILL BE PROVIDED inside the map.
A 1 pokemon Restriction. This can be bumped up to whatever number, but in order for there to be no moves used in the game, the restriction must be applied before entering. That way people cannot bypass the pp-zero traps.
Now in the previous post I stated that there will be 1 blocked tile between the player and the enemy. it’s to prevent players from standing infront of a enemy and blocking their pathway to the object(s) being protected.
I would post a picture of some of the maps Ana and Sciz made but I don’t have them. so im gonna have to make one with just symbols. Bear with me
You know I still have them right? I’ll post them, but with most screenshots, the bottom and rightmost line are not showed… Sometimes this interferes with the path of the enemy, but you’re just going to have to use your imagination a little bit.
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[thumb]http://i61.tinypic.com/ve68i.png[/thumb]
A zig-zaggy path for the enemies and places for you to walk inbetween, protecting the portal. Pretty basic and fairly easy to do, I’d imagine. This is built in Sciz’s house, music playing is DPPt) Team Galactic Hideout.ogg
[thumb]http://i60.tinypic.com/2en1fyu.png[/thumb]
This one has the enemies spiral around the map, and you have lanes to prevent them from reaching your apples. This one is also pretty easy. Built in Tower Defense’s house, music playing is ORAS) Route 119.ogg
[thumb]http://i61.tinypic.com/dyrb5h.png[/thumb]
This larger map is also zig-zaggy but a bit less than the first one. It is harder to protect your crystal in the volcano because you only have certain spots to warp to. The warps also don’t connect to eachother directly, every warp takes you one room to the south, and the southernmost warp brings you back to the island. This is built in Storm Frontier’s house, music playing is BW2) Marine Tube.ogg
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Feel free to visit any of the houses mentioned, to see for yourself. Also, please comment if you approve or have any tips on how to improve the maps.
Thank you Sciz!
Yes these are exactly what I mean for the layout for the map.
Items will either be a set spawn or a random spawn in the player only zones.
They all respawn via timer though.
A couple issues i can forsee and things to think about:
I must assume it would be a set level game due to the fact throwable damaging items are depedent on level anyway, so all of this is said with that in mind.
-Event or minigame
An important question since a lot of this involves catering to the max amount of players possible, and a lot more poeple attend events over minigames////ctf.
Enemy difficulty
How would it be implemented?
I mean like, so say we’re all set level to 10, are the mobs gonne be a mix of eg. 1-10 so some take 1 hit to kill, others take many?
But if they were low level, they couldn’t do much damage to us, though is that good or bad? Is it supposed to be like e.g. the marathon, where mobs were there to slow down / provide a lil risk bur nothing killer, or is it an active challenge? and if it IS a challenge, how challenging is it gonna be? like to a player of average skill/with pokemon of average base stats (so like, we wouldnt need a pseudo legedary to hope to surivive) - essentially, is there a massive risk of dying or only a minor risk (i can forsee difficulty changing between some maps, but they all have to livable.)
and THUS there must be a balance - between something that wont nearly kill you in one hit but also so you can nearly kill them in one hit (since we’re attacking many).
Mobs that have anything other than their ‘normal’ stats for a given level must be scripted, and though this game would require some degree of that anyway, i’m just pondering because Andy is a v busy person!
Also keep in mind…mobs cannot use items in any way right now, so moves - lest it was worked on - are their only attack method.
-Item amount.
Items depend on amount playing. everyone needs things to attack. There needs to be enough so people wont run out in the middle of a wave, but is there any risk involved of them running out at all? Like…do we have to be conservative / or collaborate to save our items? or woudl we say…just get 99k of them to use?
Since it does depend on amount playing, the most attending an event would be say…40 people? (based off of my own prediction of weekly event player-amount) or if its just like, a substitute for (in its economical definition, something else other than…) ctf, is it gonna be designed for like 15 people at most? I understand that also can change between maps, but just something to consider.
Respawned items must cater to the players, even if theyre meant to be something the crew goes “we’ve only got a few who needs it the most” to, like 3 oran berries cannot in any way cater for 30 people. Similarly, are sticks/rocks respawning gonna be small or big piles?
Now just a bit less on the general idea of the game but the specifics of the maps.
Linking to the point about player amount, there needs to be enough room for partcipating players. Using 10 participants as an example, having 15 tiles to walk on is a bad idea.
Whether it should be or not spacey im indifferent, but there needs to be enough walkable tiles to a) fit everyone on so many arent cramped to a small space b) to attack things on most tiles ((i understand that some tiles being inaccesable can create challenge if controlled/done well but if you’re only attacking like, 20% of the mob path tiles then theres an issue)) oh and c) for items to spawn clearly ((on a cramped map, people could be standing on tiles where items spawn so may never notice).
Non trippy pls, make sure that its somewhat clear where players are supposed to walk and where mobs are supposed to walk, particularly with maze-like maps.
A couple issues i can forsee and things to think about:
I must assume it would be a set level game due to the fact throwable damaging items are depedent on level anyway, so all of this is said with that in mind.
This is heavily based on staff. having stronger pokemon gives you an adavantage so really there is no need for a set level unless staff want everyone on equal grounds. Im saying this because its more realistic, having a set level defeats the purpose of the challenge. Plus players can probably do a Lvl 1 Challenge, trying to beat the game with everyone only using lvl 1. How fun :la:
-Event or minigame
An important question since a lot of this involves catering to the max amount of players possible, and a lot more poeple attend events over minigames////ctf.
Both. CTF is a minigame but also an event at time. So really this can go either way. I hope its more of a mini game though, because this would be fun to play over and over. Yet waiting for it can be worth it as well. I do see your point about amount of players but people do try to assemble a team to play mini games. You don’t know how popular this mini game will be until its implemented. For example no one ever mentions the Snow ball game in Winden. Mostly because no one likes the game style for it. For the Tower Defense we don’t know for sure if it will be a hit or a bust until it happens.
Enemy difficulty
How would it be implemented?
I mean like, so say we’re all set level to 10, are the mobs gonne be a mix of eg. 1-10 so some take 1 hit to kill, others take many?
Like I said there wouldn’t be any set levels(unless staff have it that way) set levels make things too easy at times.
No. It wouldn’t take 1 hit. it would take more depending on the pokemon and mount of HP they have. The enemies would also have HP buffs on them to make it harder. This applies to both having a set level and having regular levels in the game.
But if they were low level, they couldn’t do much damage to us, though is that good or bad?
They are going to start off low levels but the levels increase as the waves go. So attacks early on won’t hurt as much as they will later on. So its both good and bad.
Is it supposed to be like e.g. the marathon, where mobs were there to slow down / provide a lil risk bur nothing killer, or is it an active challenge?
It is a tower defense. Tower Defense enemies are a Active Challenge.
and if it IS a challenge, how challenging is it gonna be? like to a player of average skill/with pokemon of average base stats (so like, we wouldnt need a pseudo legedary to hope to surivive) - essentially, is there a massive risk of dying or only a minor risk (i can forsee difficulty changing between some maps, but they all have to livable.)
The challenge will depend on the wave number you are on. Wave #1 would be the easiest while Wave #20 would be harder. (the host can also choose how many waves they many waves they want. Similar to CTF flag number.)
There is a risk of dying but It totally depends on the wave # and how low your health is. The game isn’t suppose to be easy. So the risk of dying IS NOT minor.
and THUS there must be a balance - between something that wont nearly kill you in one hit but also so you can nearly kill them in one hit (since we’re attacking many).
You wont be able to do a near kill with one hit. That’s too OP and defeats the purpose of the challenge. Likewise early on, moves wont instantly kill you, the player can still run to regain health or eat a oran. Plus as mentioned before more enemies should have a HP buff.
Mobs that have anything other than their ‘normal’ stats for a given level must be scripted, and though this game would require some degree of that anyway, i’m just pondering because Andy is a v busy person!
Also keep in mind…mobs cannot use items in any way right now, so moves - lest it was worked on - are their only attack method.
This I was unaware of, but can still work. Staff can choose what moves the pokemon can have. THAT ARE REASONABLE. Such as some pokemon walking by can do a confusion status or possible sleep to get by. Items are more desired though, But they are necessary for the game to function. I know Andy is a busy person but if this gets enough support, this may possibly motivate someone to help script and program for this.
Really if you think about it, this game can bring a lot of scripting and programming possibilities. And give staff a reason to work on some of these programming aspects to incorporate into pmu. Heres some reference to something a staff member said:
[9/28/2015 1:01:01 PM] Chaotix Bluix: Technically, I think multipule spawn points would work in PMU as it is currently, but I would get a second opinon from a more experienced mapper.
The AI as it is currently is probably not capable of that, but it would be interesting to have all the same.
[9/28/2015 1:04:34 PM] Chaotix Bluix: Story points are just that. Story… which usually locks the player out of interacting with the character for the story’s duration as the events unfold. What we’re talking about is having the AI follow a path until a condition is met without involving any story whatsoever.
[9/28/2015 1:07:14 PM] Chaotix Bluix: Still, having that kind of AI would be a huge boon to PMU. Think, pokemon acting as sentries as you have to sneak into a high security area, or pokemon purposely putting distance between you and itself so it can snipe you down, and various other things like that. That would be crazy exciting, both as players and as mappers making dungeons/maps.
[9/28/2015 1:14:10 PM] Chaotix Bluix: Well, I’m thinking of it this way. The side effect of making a TD-like minigame on PMU means we get a lot of new “toys” to play with for every other aspect of PMU. Granted, you could probably play TD on other games with far more grace than what PMU would be able to achieve, but it’s still a solid way to make some noticable strides in improving PMU at the moment.
[9/28/2015 1:14:32 PM] Chaotix Bluix: Beyond just a new dungeon, or new pokemon.
[9/28/2015 1:21:21 PM] Chaotix Bluix: Let me rephrase things then. I don’t see making a TD minigame as diverging from the core of what makes PMU fun for a lot of people (a dungeon crawler with the leveling and move mechanics of Pokemon), but what I do see is that development on a project like this would help enrich the core experience for PMU.
Now some pieces are missing, but those are from players and if you want the conversation I can quote it, but I quoted Chaotix mainly because they bring up really good points about this.
-Item amount.
Items depend on amount playing. everyone needs things to attack. There needs to be enough so people wont run out in the middle of a wave, but is there any risk involved of them running out at all? Like…do we have to be conservative / or collaborate to save our items? or woudl we say…just get 99k of them to use?
Well Items will respawn after a certain amount of time, and this is somewhat of a survival game so a large amount isn’t right. The starting number should be more like 50 of what ever item. Once that 50 is up you gotta go search around the map for more items to use or oran berries if hurt. Blast seeds will be available as well but as a longer respawn/rare spawn.
Since it does depend on amount playing, the most attending an event would be say…40 people? (based off of my own prediction of weekly event player-amount) or if its just like, a substitute for (in its economical definition, something else other than…) ctf, is it gonna be designed for like 15 people at most? I understand that also can change between maps, but just something to consider.
If read this wrong let me know. I don’t know what the player cap would be for this game, everyones gonna be on the same team. So it might be possible to get a certain map depending on player amount.
Respawned items must cater to the players, even if theyre meant to be something the crew goes “we’ve only got a few who needs it the most” to, like 3 oran berries cannot in any way cater for 30 people. Similarly, are sticks/rocks respawning gonna be small or big piles?
The numbers used were rough estimates and thereby not official really. Items respawning will depend on players attending and form a ratio to the amount of players such as a 1:3 ratio at least. Items shouldn’t respawn a lot, but also need to have a good amount to cater to everyone as you stated. They will respawn in somewhat large piles, around 20 max. Number of the sticks/rocks can vary to make it more interesting and a challenge
Now just a bit less on the general idea of the game but the specifics of the maps.
Linking to the point about player amount, there needs to be enough room for partcipating players. Using 10 participants as an example, having 15 tiles to walk on is a bad idea.
Really in a Tower Defense game, people choose ‘stations’ to stand and not move at. Walking isn’t gonna be extremely necessary. So in your example there would be 5 empty ‘stations’ which is a lot when you think about the layout and the placement of your team mates.
Whether it should be or not spacey im indifferent, but there needs to be enough walkable tiles to a) fit everyone on so many arent cramped to a small space
People shouldn’t be moving much as stated earlier. Only time people should is to go after a pokemon that passed up everyone and to get items.
b) to attack things on most tiles ((i understand that some tiles being inaccesable can create challenge if controlled/done well but if you’re only attacking like, 20% of the mob path tiles then theres an issue))
I think you misunderstood. There is a blocked tile between the player and the enemy path. This is to prevent players from hitting enemies via the F key. There is no issue for only attack 20% of the path because that’s how much your ‘station’ or tile that you are standing at will cover. That’s a basic Tower Defense mechanic. There are other tiles with people standing at to cover more grounds. not everyone will be on the same tile attacking.
oh and c) for items to spawn clearly ((on a cramped map, people could be standing on tiles where items spawn so may never notice).
Up to staff here if they want items to spawn in the same spot over and over again. There could be a tile off to the side where the items will always respawn. First come First serve. Of course its possible for there to be multiple spawning of items, so people wont crowd over 1 respawn spot for items.
Non trippy pls, make sure that its somewhat clear where players are supposed to walk and where mobs are supposed to walk, particularly with maze-like maps.
Here’s the map example Sciz made. The main path that leads directly to the volcano is the enemy path. The player areas will be on the other side of the blocked tiles, NOT IN THE MAIN PATH. Players will only spawn in the areas outside the path. There will be warps to help players travel between the west and east side of the player areas.
Thanks for clearing stuff up for me (-loves fleshed out ideas to discuss-)!
“This is heavily based on staff. having stronger pokemon gives you an adavantage so really there is no need for a set level unless staff want everyone on equal grounds. Im saying this because its more realistic, having a set level defeats the purpose of the challenge. Plus players can probably do a Lvl 1 Challenge, trying to beat the game with everyone only using lvl 1. How fun”
See, id disagree personally.
Because it opens the way for massive discrepancies between players. i mean like…whats the point when i can enter with my level 100 and just kill most things easy-peasy, only to be limited by items? Lest it was a map for level 100.
I dont think level caps work (fixed levels do, but not something that say - would take my lv100 down to level 50 and leave a lv33 unchanged. i dont think its scritped yet).
I think with level caps this could work but as they dont exist as far as i know, personally i dislike it. While you could just say ‘nothing outsid eof x-y level range’ that can alienate people without pokemon in a given range, especially new players.
“having a set level defeats the purpose of the challenge.” HT is challenging because you have to fight things with base higher stats than you with mostly, tactics (in terms of team composition etc). Similarly, a game like this can be challenging as everyone is fighting things that are designed to challenge that specific level. A pokemons difficulty, stats, moves can be completely tailored to annoy that level and make it a challenge.
Though i do understand that conversely there can also be challenge with differing levels as such as people going ‘let the strong deal with x mob and let the weak deal with y mob’ or w/e, with tactics designed around weakness and conservation of items, but keep in mind that without an actually effective level cap this may mean some may not be able to particpiate or people will be op.
Considering waves in relevance to this:
I do understand that set levels can indeed, ruin the point of waves. As set level means the waves higher difficulty can mean everyone getting wiped and nothing to stop weaker players exitting the game/or weaker players being protected for eg the boss, it really means the waves wouldnt have too much of a base stat increase (too much being a key word, nothing impossibly hard like a lv40 vs 100 approx stats i mean) which would work with no level limit as its not going to be cheap difficulty to at least one level range, though it may or may not outrank low levels by a lot a high wave would sitll be effective against high levels in terms of base stats. It adds another factor besides making movesets more diffuclt to deal with, and more factors to think about and change here the better really.
If someone is participating with a high level to get to a high wave with someone of a low level just wanting to have fun and do it, what would the effects of that be?
It could mean potentially, high levels dominate earlier rounds (making it perhaps less fun for low levels, depending on how items are distributed say - a low level takes 4 sticks to kill something, a high level takes 1, you want the high level to deal with everything because theyre gonna use less, but if the low level starts before the high level can get to it youd be wasting items also. either way, its undesirable for the low level to do anything. lest items be dsitributed such that, if the entire squad needed 4 sticks to kill things, then thered be enough sticks in which case it wouldnt be as detrimental to let low levels lead at early stages so it would be possible for high levels to laxen up and thus, that disparity of strength wouldnt weigh heavily enough for people to desire a strict playing style)
Low levels making it to high waves (i dont know about this one, it could be good due to player made protection challenges, or fun for the person to get to a high wave even if theyre not themselevs strong enough, but it coudld also be bad if the low level tried to kill things since it would take a lot of items, its way less productive, which could cause potential playing style friction ((in the same way some dont go to ht with people because they come underprepared, some people wont wanna play with people who’re gonna weaken the general strength of the team by wasting items. key word: some people, im aware not everyone agrees with me here!)) as low levels using items vs high levels weighs a lot more heavily than vice versa.)
I dunno what to think really here, but im certainly starting to see different levels as a good thing (at first i was aversed to the idea, but thinking about it its actually pretty good.)
also “I think you misunderstood. There is a blocked tile between the player and the enemy path. This is to prevent players from hitting enemies via the F key. There is no issue for only attack 20% of the path because that’s how much your ‘station’ or tile that you are standing at will cover. That’s a basic Tower Defense mechanic. There are other tiles with people standing at to cover more grounds. not everyone will be on the same tile attacking.”
nah i didnt, i know theres blocked tiles. i mean, in general, if collectively all tiles to stand on only cover 20% of the main path - as in everyone on a tile, the collective range would still be tiny - thats an issue. though as stated, i do know that can create a challenge but theres a thing i like to call ‘artificial challange’ and by that i mean doing cheap things to make something difficult. few windows to attack means handling mobs very carefully to make things doable. merely a consideration though, i dont see too much of an issue with the maps suggested so far.
if i come off a little aggressive im sorry btw xD im trying to alter my style to seem nicer
I’ve yet through go through all of these posts, so apologies in advance if I miss some important point. (don’t kill me)
Just breezing through the original post, this looks pretty fun! PvE is definitely a change from the previous minigames.
Regarding the level discrepancy problem… Could there possibly be two versions of this mini-game? One building (let’s say in Exbel) has the Set Level system while another building (in a different region) could host the Any Level system.
@Azzrianda
Don’t worry. You’ve provided thought and reason behind your opinions. This is constructive, not blatant, criticism. It’s a necessary part of working through suggestions and making sure they’re fit for the game. Keep up the lengthy posts. :P
“This would alienate people” This is why im against a level requirement. But I can see a set level working. There’s a way for everyone to be happy. Add a command that allows Free Level (meaning 1-100) or a Set lvl (possibly 30).
Everyone’s happy.
“having a set level defeats the purpose of the challenge.” HT is challenging because you have to fight things with base higher stats than you with mostly, tactics (in terms of team composition etc). Similarly, a game like this can be challenging as everyone is fighting things that are designed to challenge that specific level. A pokemons difficulty, stats, moves can be completely tailored to annoy that level and make it a challenge.
Though i do understand that conversely there can also be challenge with differing levels as such as people going ‘let the strong deal with x mob and let the weak deal with y mob’ or w/e, with tactics designed around weakness and conservation of items, but keep in mind that without an actually effective level cap this may mean some may not be able to particpiate or people will be op.
Considering waves in relevance to this:
I do understand that set levels can indeed, ruin the point of waves. As set level means the waves higher difficulty can mean everyone getting wiped and nothing to stop weaker players exitting the game/or weaker players being protected for eg the boss, it really means the waves wouldnt have too much of a base stat increase (too much being a key word, nothing impossibly hard like a lv40 vs 100 approx stats i mean) which would work with no level limit as its not going to be cheap difficulty to at least one level range, though it may or may not outrank low levels by a lot a high wave would sitll be effective against high levels in terms of base stats. It adds another factor besides making movesets more diffuclt to deal with, and more factors to think about and change here the better really.
Explain this more please, I think I understand but in a different way.
If someone is participating with a high level to get to a high wave with someone of a low level just wanting to have fun and do it, what would the effects of that be?
It could mean potentially, high levels dominate earlier rounds (making it perhaps less fun for low levels, depending on how items are distributed say - a low level takes 4 sticks to kill something, a high level takes 1, you want the high level to deal with everything because theyre gonna use less, but if the low level starts before the high level can get to it youd be wasting items also. either way, its undesirable for the low level to do anything. lest items be dsitributed such that, if the entire squad needed 4 sticks to kill things, then thered be enough sticks in which case it wouldnt be as detrimental to let low levels lead at early stages so it would be possible for high levels to laxen up and thus, that disparity of strength wouldnt weigh heavily enough for people to desire a strict playing style)
Honestly I would see everyone pitching to to help. (course theres some trolls but lets assume there aren’t any for now.) The waves wont be coming so slow that the lvl 100 will be the only one to handle them. And I think a way around this would be set damage. By having set damage, it makes the playing field equal for everyone, despite not having the same levels.
Low levels making it to high waves (i dont know about this one, it could be good due to player made protection challenges, or fun for the person to get to a high wave even if theyre not themselevs strong enough, but it coudld also be bad if the low level tried to kill things since it would take a lot of items, its way less productive, which could cause potential playing style friction ((in the same way some dont go to ht with people because they come underprepared, some people wont wanna play with people who’re gonna weaken the general strength of the team by wasting items. key word: some people, im aware not everyone agrees with me here!)) as low levels using items vs high levels weighs a lot more heavily than vice versa.).
Set Damage Sticks, see above quote.
I dunno what to think really here, but im certainly starting to see different levels as a good thing (at first i was aversed to the idea, but thinking about it its actually pretty good.)
While im seeing the good side for set levels.
also “I think you misunderstood. There is a blocked tile between the player and the enemy path. This is to prevent players from hitting enemies via the F key. There is no issue for only attack 20% of the path because that’s how much your ‘station’ or tile that you are standing at will cover. That’s a basic Tower Defense mechanic. There are other tiles with people standing at to cover more grounds. not everyone will be on the same tile attacking.”
nah i didnt, i know theres blocked tiles. i mean, in general, if collectively all tiles to stand on only cover 20% of the main path - as in everyone on a tile, the collective range would still be tiny - thats an issue. though as stated, i do know that can create a challenge but theres a thing i like to call ‘artificial challange’ and by that i mean doing cheap things to make something difficult. few windows to attack means handling mobs very carefully to make things doable. merely a consideration though, i dont see too much of an issue with the maps suggested so far.
Ok glad you weren’t confused by this
if i come off a little aggressive im sorry btw xD im trying to alter my style to seem nicer
I don’t see any of this as aggressive, I see it as constructive criticism
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