Pmu's policy regarding certain language

FOREWARNING: this post contains discussion of topics that are not pg-13, as well as transphobic, homophobic, and sexist rhetoric and concepts. i bring these things up not to break the rules but because they are necessary for what i need to elaborate on since it’s not common knowledge for everyone

so, i wasnt really sure if i should make this post, where i should put it, or how i should go about it, but its pretty late and i feel like getting it off my chest because its something thats extremely personal to me and its a consistent problem.

pmu needs to better enforce its rules on transphobic hate speech, namely jokes about “tr/ps,” and be more vigilant about the use of the word "simp"

TR/P:

you see many people say the word tr/p when discussing “feminine” pokemon or characters who are actually guys and whatnot or related topics like that. many people dont know what it means. unfortunately people who make these jokes are doing it with transphobic intent.

the word tr/p (not referring to dungeon tiles) refer to “men” who decieve men into relationships under the guise of being a woman by dressing up in a way that makes them appear like one. these “men” are implied to be predators who try to trick men into being with men. so, they are “tr/ps” that you would fall for. not only is this very homophobic, but it is transphobic. many people or characters people call tr/ps are either trans women who already face claims that they are predators, or are mocked for “looking like a girl” by claiming these individuals have sinister intent, and not just dressing the way they like

i see this word get repeatedly used in global, and it is almost NEVER enforced. i feel like this word should be treated with the same gravity as ANY slur. the fact that pmu claims to be LGBT-friendly yet i repeatedly see people use this slur with NO repurcussions or just being told not to say those things. that ISNT ENOUGH. the people who say it know what they are saying. if you look up the word on slang websites you will see how people use the word. i dont reccomend doing so however because it is hateful language and not sfw, but if you need proof it is easily fact checked.

SIMP:

simp used to mean a shortened form of the word “simpleton” which means stupid. however in recent days it has come to mean something extremely harmful to women. the word is abbreviated to “suckers idolizing mediocre [redacted]” wherein the last word refers to girls in a demeaning way that is not sfw. not only does this violate the pmu nsfw rule as it exposes children who may be playing to gross concepts if they decide to google what it means, but it is also very disgusting to say that.

it basically refers to men who idolize women they are attracted to who are “mediocre,” so the men are “suckers” because they are giving women who dont care about them attention. referring to yourself as one is bad because it demeans someone down to their body rather than their personality and is incredibly awful, and sometimes the word is even used to refer to people who are simply just nice to a woman the individual saying the word does not like. it is very uncomfortable to hear this word because it is so demeaning to the subject of idolization and is not safe for work on a game that is supposed to be.


language evolves rapidly and new harmful words come out every day. maybe these words will fade out of relevance soon but in the meantime they are hateful rhetoric that should be enforced against the same way other slurs or harmful language are. this isnt because im a prude about “swears” or im “triggered” or something, but these words enforce hateful ideas about groups of people for a quick laugh and break PMU’s rules. PMU cannot claim to be a safe space while allowing these types of things

i apologize if i was too forward about this content. i am trying to be as civil and as sfw as i can but it is difficult because of the subject matter. i also took this to the public forums because many people dont know what these words mean either, or are just repeating them because they heard them from internet memes and i feel it is important to inform people as to why it is a problem.

this isnt really meant to be voted on. i wasnt really sure where to put this on the forums since i dont want to direct this at specific users and its more of a policy thing than a game mechanic suggestion. idk.

thanks for reading. please be kind to others

Please read the entire post if you feel strongly about this issue. While I may disagree with the OP on very specific points, I understand the intent comes from a place of genuine concern for oft-marginalized groups rather than malice, and I actually agree both terms ultimately don’t really belong on PMU due to their subject matter.

Note, though I did my best to avoid delving into specifics, the below is still discussing the same PG-13 content as the OP. You have been warned. Additionally, if staff feel this discussion should end or even be completely hidden, I will not object.

I actually disagree that the above two terms are deplorable in every context, and I think there’s an important discussion that isn’t being explored enough in general on how we decide what language is or is not hurtful, as the definitions for both these slang terms mean something a lot different depending on who is using them.

I’ve primarily heard the former used as a compliment directed towards benign cross-dressers, though obviously referring to a trans-gendered individual with the term has some very unkind implications, implying they are trying to appear as something they are not, which isn’t very nice. But I’ve actually observed people who wind up fond of “tr*p” characters stepping back and re-assessing their own views on things like gender identity, and becoming more open-minded as a result. So I don’t think characterizing the entire phenomenon as evil is fair, even if there are those that will abuse the term. Instead, I’d prefer to address those holding the hateful and obviously incorrect position directly–not give them more power by accrediting the slang to their narrow, hateful use of it.

The latter I’ve had less experience with, but the Urban Dictionary’s top definition is much more in line with how I’ve observed its use, being “someone who does way too much for a person they like.” Though I obviously agree implying someone is “trying too much” for someone based on their appearance is all kinds of awful, and it can absolutely be used in that context, I don’t think that’s actually packaged into the slang itself by default. Similar to the above, I think focusing on only the misuse of the term ultimately gives those that have “corrupted” it more power.

However, while on a larger scale I do feel that these terms merit discussion before being chucked into the hate slur bin… I agree they don’t really belong on PMU. Whether the conclusion we would reach from a discussion on their merits is that they are or are not inherently offensive at their core, there’s one thing that I don’t think is particularly debatable; their subject matter touches on things that aren’t really appropriate for PMU anyway.

We can still discuss this within PMU’s rules–or in private if that’s not possible–if you want though, because I agree it’s important to consider the implications of these sorts of slang terms on a larger stage than just this community.

im not going to talk much regarding the debate as to how bad these terms are really because not only is it a subject that upsets me but also because larger conversation about these topics may be important but this really isnt the place to say

to be as brief as i can, while i can see your point my argument basicslly boils down to “yeah but the definition is literally harmful so any definition thats benign is in spite of that, not due to the inherent nature of the word.” because both words were created with malicious intent.

from what i gather youre saying “people use these in a benign way and only a small minority are bad faith characters” but i politely but FIRMLY disagree as ive been elsewhere on the internet where out of the thousands of times ive been exposed to them only once or twice have i seen it used without the intent to insult or use the words at a groups expense.

i think any reclamation of these terms needs a lot more nuance than throwing out the words as a joke response on global chat which is what the post is talking about, and even if you were having good faith arguments, you can explore your gender or convey that someone is being strung along without using these words and the arguments stemming from the words, while they may end up being fine, really dont belong on a pokemon fangame with a pg-13 audience.

even if they were reclaimed constructively, i think ultimately there ARE some slurs or words that can be used proactively by the subject being harmed by their use but even if they do they still wouldnt belong HERE.

and ultimately thats what we both argee with so im gonna leave it at that

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I can agree this may not be the place for an extended discussion due to where the subject matter will inevitably have to go; even if we were to tip-toe around the implications and avoid breaking any rules, that would hamper the discussion.

If my interpretation of your post is correct you also do not wish to discuss this in private either, so I will respect that. If you change your mind, feel free to DM me on Discord.

Regardless of our differing positions however, I 100% agree that, under the rules as I currently understand them to be written, use or discussion of these terms regardless of intent should already be banned, and if there is a lapse in enforcement I support that being corrected.

I appreciate the civility, especially knowing it’s an uncomfortable subject for you.

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I absolutely agree with simp, and think you should add to your list another word I’ve seen people use that I don’t think they know the meaning of, “cuck/cucked”.

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As for TR/P don’t pretend like you are specifically talking about me, but l before I had NEVER heard of it in negative context before EVER until you mentioned it, and I have since never said it. The whole word is a slippery slope though since it is a very new “Slur” as you say and a lot of people haven’t even acknowledged it, more even argue the definition, I think it should be dealt with now that I know what it means, on a more generous warning basis, but I agree that repeat offenders should be prosecuted it’s difficult to punish a word that has only been considered a slur for around a year or less. Trust me when I say that when I used it I never meant to be transphobic, and I have a very personal stake in transrights, besides just having friends who are, that I don’t want to discuss openly but if you are willing to talk to me in DM’s I would be fine with it.

i frankly find the fact that youre accusing me of calling you out specifically pretty insulting because it wasnt just you saying it. id appreciate not being treated like i am because i specifically refrained from pointing people out for this reason.

this isnt about you then. dont make this about you please.

i state in my original post that part of the reason im making this public is to inform people as to why the word is harmful (because i wouldnt have if people knew especially because these topics are really sensitive and make me uncomfortable) and if someone genuinely didnt know what it meant, then not saying it should be very easy for people who genuinely want to do better.

staff SHOULD warn for this, even if people dont know what it means, thats the point. im not saying its an instant ban worthy thing because i KNOW its new info and not everyone knows what it means, i literally say that in the post, but ignoring it when it happens or getting awkward and changing the subject in a way thats happened in the past doesnt help either. even if its just a warning thats like “hey dont say that here.”

I’ve read through some articles to help better my understanding of the words above. I will link a few in the comments below. Be warned as they contain sensitive material.


I will describe a bit of the history of “tr/p” from what I’ve researched. Originally, it described “a man cross-dressing as a woman”. They know they’re a man, but they dress with feminine clothing. When used to describe the cross-dressers, they claimed the word for themselves. However, calling a trans woman a “tr/p” is transphobic as it basically says “they’re not a woman, they’re just a man dressing as a woman”. It evolved into the insult is it today. Furthermore, “tr/ps” have NSFW implications in manga, which only furthers the reason why the word shouldn’t be posted within global.


As for “s*mp”, I didn’t realize the implications behind this one until I read this. griefy already explained it pretty well in the top post, but I’ll go ahead and expand on this a bit. The reason why this word is also discomforting is because it is connected to certain trends such as #notallmen and calling women sexist. I remember having a lot of shame being male due to previous movements of the “nice guy” and feeling scared to even interact with females as coming across as “one of those guys”. I see this word is just another term of sexism, whether jokingly used or not. I admit that I might have used the term once or twice because I was thinking it was some term of endearment due to all the memes.


I will admit though that, if you explore enough, many words have their own unfortunate implications and can be the cause of controversy if you look deep enough. However, since these are more clear, they’re more prone to be abused in ways that are more hurtful. That’s why I will agree with griefy in having these words kept under careful surveillance or, if possible, restricted on the filter list. Though I can see that becoming a problem when talking about how annoying the PP Zero Traps would be and getting a warning, so that might not be the easiest to track…


And now, I’m gonna respond to some certain statements.

I think you brought it forth pretty well. You could have left it at “these words are not friendly/SFW”, but the expansion on each word gives good reasons why.

Move it to General Discussion. It fits better there.

While this may be true, it’s really easy for people to slip into using these terms in derogatory ways. Because of how grey these words are, I feel it’s better to avoid using them at all than to allow usage. Besides, there’s a multitude of other words to describe having a male feminine Pokémon or praising one’s attitude or personality. The regular user will not explore these words since it doesn’t have as much meaning to them as those who are affected by them.

It is always nice to see people get more open-minded, yes. But they don’t have to use the term itself. People can RP their male feminine characters without calling them “tr/ps” or the like. They can just avoid the labels entirely and be enbys! /shot

This made me think a bit more. We already have restrictions that people 13+ can play PMU, but PMU’s still being treated as a family-friendly game despite the age restriction. Which brings up another question: is PMU going to be put as PG-13 because of the restriction, or will it stay family-friendly despite not allowing children on the game? In that regard, I feel like this discussion, among others, should be kept up for the time being.

This whole paragraph is in line with my views on this. I might have given the history behind it, but after reading through a few comments and thinking a bit more, dumb people are still going to be dumb and insult others or use the words without realizing the implications. I feel strongly that if an updated swear list gets implemented, these words should be added as well with small asterisks/footnotes with descriptions on why.

Even so, it should be contained in case it does become a slur. Back when I was younger, “r/t/rd” was a common word that my school used. We were kids, and the adults weren’t telling us off, so we used it freely. Because of that, it grew up with me and it took me a while to unlearn saying the word (about 6 months or so). That’s why it’s better to nip the slur at the bud before it starts blossoming.

I feel this is the proper way to move forward when using these slurs. Just having the warning by staff would generally help improve the situation behind this.


I’m glad this is being addressed despite being a sensitive topic. However, I also can see how this could get out of hand. If someone decides to take a more controversial stance in saying “this word wasn’t bad before” or “you’re just too sensitive”, I feel like it might break out into a huge flame-war. If you’re really passionate about this, bring this up with staff members in DMs by linking this thread so they can take this problem into consideration.

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Yes, I kinda agree on this, and I apologize if you disliked my directness, but you said yourself in the past that you disliked passive-aggressiveness, so I am trying to accommodate you as much as possible, I don’t want to be your enemy here,

I am not saying that as about me exclusively I am using myself as an example of why it shouldn’t be a ban on-site matter, so for the rest of it you have to understand my perspective, the person I’ve seen use the word the most have in fact been me, but that was before I knew it was considered transphobic if anything I thought you were being transphobic because I honestly had no idea what message you were trying to convey, and I hadn’t ever heard of it being a slur, as it was only months old when the incident happened and I don’t use the social media that the word obtained a negative undertone on. That being said, I am confident that I am not the only one who has this misunderstanding, so like I said I agree it should be warned, but it should be done in a much more courteous manner for first offenders than longer-lasting slurs.

Well, congrats Shadow. You’ve got me going back on my word within 24 hours and continuing this discussion anyway. :stuck_out_tongue:

If staff feel at any point I’ve gone too far, I will not take deleting or editing of my posts personally.

The following post contains an excessive nitpicking of semantics, and is largely focused on these topics in a context outside of PMU. I also continue to play the devil’s advocate for a less popular mentality on offensive language as a whole. If these things do not interest you, that’s okay!

My position disallowing these terms in game remains unchanged and largely in-line with the rest of this thread. They both touch on subject matters simply not fit for PMU under the rules as they are currently written.

Semantics

Note: As griefy has expressed a desire to stop engaging in this conversation, I have not addressed any of their newer posts here.

So, from your own research, the previous meaning of the word was entirely benign. My question then is thus; why simply roll over and allow the worst kind of people to be the ones who dictate the definition?

I should note, however, as I have already agreed with prior…

This is true, and as even the most benign use has close connections to subject matters deemed not fit for PMU, whether the word should be discouraged on a global stage isn’t particularly relevant to PMU.

The wording of your link says one thing, but then the linked article doesn’t back that up. At what point does the article make the connection to calling women sexist? The article itself even acknowledges that the term very quickly evolved to not just mean “man hopelessly chases woman.”

From my own experience, I have seen the term used with no regard for the gender of the two involved. Can it be used harmfully? Absolutely. But I can use the word bridge harmfully by telling someone to “go throw yourself off a bridge” as well.

I will confess to having a different philosophy there. If a word or slang term has a contested meaning, the absolute fastest way to distill it down into an exclusively harmful word is for everyone who was at the very least not intending to use it in a harmful context to stop. Because then that leaves only the people who are hateful enough to use it anyway.

Ultimately, any word can be twisted into something hateful by the sentence and context it is used in. Fixating on words themselves rather than the intent behind them–accosting someone for using the wrong word rather than the narrative they weave with those words–ultimately misses the point in my eyes. A bigot will not stop being a bigot simply because you tell them–or even force them–to stop using a word, they’ll just corrupt a new word and the cycle will begin anew. Granted, by my own logic I’m not helping. I avoided the former term already due to the contested meaning, and I certainly won’t be using the latter now that I’m aware of how it is perceived by a lot of people. And I’ll reiterate, by subject matter alone neither really belongs on PMU under the current rules.

I should also note that I don’t universally think banning words is completely worthless, as may be interpreted from above; if every single reasonably common definition of a word touches on subject matters not fit for a community, then simply banning it has no real drawback and nips some of those subjects in the bud.

Yes, they can, obviously, but that doesn’t really solve my biggest concern. If we quarantine any term that hateful individuals pick up, regardless of its original meaning or the more benign meaning it evolves into when taken up by the general public, that gives the wrong kind of people far too much power as far as I’m concerned. Now, I do understand I’m playing the devil’s advocate here, as my position is far from widespread.

I’ve had similar thoughts, but the position Fennes took in the swear word thread suggests to me that, regardless of my own thoughts, the status quo in that regard will be upheld. And so I’m looking at it through that lens to the best of my ability. (Though it’s kind of hard when I still don’t actually know the intent behind many of the rules and have to guess at it)

Where I will take a hard stance however is here. A binary “is this word allowed or not” policy is not going to fly when the word “trap” is used to describe a core game mechanic, as well as a very common item. The job of a moderator is not to be half-asleep and ignore everything until big orange text pops up on their screen, and our moderators aren’t so incompetent as to not be able to differentiate between the two contexts.

There’s no escaping the fact that you have to pay attention to context with this one. There’s a difference between telling someone to buy a tool, and that they are a tool, for example.

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all i have to say on the matter is if people can get warned for saying “spastic” because it’s used to mock the disabled in the UK – when a good chunk of players are american and don’t even know that the word’s a slur over there, staff need to be consistent and give all slurs the same treatment, rather than be inconsistent like with the swear policy.

EDIT:: trap can definitely be added to the word filter if “gay” and “lesbian” are a-ok on the filter. staff already look at context of words in case people typo , like when a former staff mispelled sec in global, or your fingers slip when saying “shot”, so there’s no reason “trap” can’t be added to the filter.

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