Rework Smeargle's Sketch to actually make it viable

Suggestions and Contributions Moves
1

Ok, so I had an idea earlier today for a Smeargle build, and came on to try and get one. And Seedlings mentioned that it copies the entire current move-set of the Pokemon it’s used on. So I did some testing with a friend who has a Smeargle, and lo and behold; it does precisely that… Even copying blank moves…

Let me explain to you why this is deeply problematic:

  1. Smeargle has a low base stats total, like it’s not even funny how low it is. It has a stat total of 250 and only 40 of those are split evenly between attack and special attack. What this means, is that it’s automatically WORSE at everything it copies.

Because of this, you’d actually be better off running the Pokemon you’re copying.

  1. It can’t learn moves through any other means than sketch. Which means you are stuck working with the moves you learned with sketch. So if you got it from a boss or a friend using a mystery part you are stuck with whatever it had, unless you get rid of it all for another moveset… Did I mention you also do it a lot worse than the Pokemon you copied?

  2. It’s a much worse transform. The reason transform is desirable is because you take on the base stats of whatever you transform into when you use it. Which means you pack a punch. But more importantly it also gives you their type, which addresses the next problem on this list.

  3. Smeargle won’t get STAB, or same type attack bonus. Which means it’s hits are EVEN WEAKER. This isn’t even mitigated by it’s abilities because you can’t take advantage of technician and own tempo, or moody effectively if you don’t have the freedom to build.

Conclusion:

In order to build Smeargle in it’s current state, you’d need a friend to build a mon with the moves you want, and then copy them. The problem is that at that point, you may as well just save your friend the trouble and have them help get you the Pokemon you’re trying to copy, because they will do EVERYTHING better than Smeargle. Absolutely everything.

Even if you copied a support moveset, you’d be better off running the support you copied because of Smeargles base stats. That’s not how his gimmick is supposed to function. Smeargles potential is in learning moves that would otherwise be impossible to have on 1 pokemon.

This is why people often use it to copy moves like Geomancy, kings shield, and other exclusive moves that combo amazingly together, which on any other mon, would be busted. But that’s why smeargles base stats are abysmal. The Devs of the mainstream games knew it’s gimmick would be busted without lower stats. But that’s just the issue. The fact that you can’t do this, means that Smeargle is borderline USELESS.

Potential solutions:

  1. Make the moves you learn via sketch relearnable at Electivire.

  2. Make a custom move tutor for Smeargles that just contain every legal move sketchable for Smeargle.

  3. Make Smeargle only sketch the first move on the opposing pokemon so you can still have control of what you copy.

  4. Make Sketch not copy blank space so you can work with a friend to get a specific move in a specific space. This would allow them to strip it down to the one move you’re after.

  5. This one here really isn’t practical, but add move tracking for the last thing that hit you so it can be implemented as intended. Moves like mimic don’t work so I just assume that the move tracking just doesn’t exist in PMU.

Additional Notes:
Seedlings did say they’d bring this up when they had the chance, but I figured I’d put my thoughts here to explain why this needs attention, so the community can know. And also so I can explain why Smeargle is designed like it is in the main games.

2

I always wanted to reply to this. But was too lazy to make an account

I completely agree that smeargle is massively busted in the game

And i also agree with virtually all of your solutions being reasonable solutions.

That being said. I want to add two things.

Smeargle would STILL be busted/overpowered even with your reasonable suggestions.

Adding and implementing new moves from gen 8 might take even longer if our devs are scared of introducing something that causes smeargle to be even more brokenly powerful than he already is.

I agree with you that smeargle is broken unusable, but to fix him in any way that stays true to the original games risks making the game so imbalanced that everyone will be using smeargle (probably as a support)

In the main games, what stops smeargle is his beyond abysmal stats. He has 1/4 of what a gyarados would have

The stat gap in pmu is smaller, not to mention some roles dont even require stats.

For instance can you imagine how long a smeargle could last with a mobile scarf when they know synthesis morning sun moonlight and rest?

No need for apples forever.

So. It would be great if we could fix smeargle and make him viable, but I’m not so sure the dev team has an easy task making him closer to his status in the originals without making him brokenly overpowered.

We need to think of something more balanced and thoughtful and potentially easy to implement

3

I do kinda have to agree that in its current state, Smeargle doesn’t really have much of anything going for it. Being able to copy only an entire moveset at once usually leads to it having a niche role (almost always relegated to support), or to copy a legendary’s moveset since you can’t really “own” a legendary as things currently stand. Oftentimes you are better off getting other mons.

HOWEVER, I think there is another possible answer to making Smeargle viable for use, and that’s fixing up its 3-star family item (Paint Scarf) to actually have a function. The item in question is supposed to make Secret Rooms easier to find, but currently this does functionally nothing from what I know about it. If this specific type of item did work, the 5 species who have this item would probably see a lot more usage, and given Smeargle’s flexibility it could actually fit a supporting role that gives up some stats/usability to give the player a very useful boon.

Also, for what it’s worth, Transform isn’t even implemented in this game yet. Ditto is in a far, far worse position in PMU than Smeargle is as it’s effectively a low stat blob with no real attack options.

Now, I do like coming up with solutions, so let’s look at those ideas that you proposed:

(1 and 2) - there are a LOT of moves, and I’m not sure if the UI would be able to reasonably hold it all together with the sprawling lists. It might also be a bit too much work to make such menus function relative to the value it gives, so it seems unlikely we’d pursue these solutions however nice they may sound on paper.

(3) - A neat and simple idea for sure, but it’d place a lot more emphasis on cooperation with players to get what you want as you wouldn’t really know what the first move on a wild mon is. It’d really nuke the usefulness of this move with regards to wild mons if we did it this way.

(4) - Another neat idea that could be used as a workaround to the current limitations, and this one doesn’t nuke the ability to pull moves from a wild mon quite as hard either. If there’s anything I would push as an idea to the staff team, it’d be this one.

(5) - To be honest, I think Mimic has its own reasons why it doesn’t work, probably due to how the game checks for legal moves behind the scenes…I wouldn’t know if this is the exact reason, however. I do think it would be neat to see Mimic get some functional use in the future. I know for certain that Encore works; there is the ability to track something’s last used move, so this should be doable if it came to it.

Phew. Longer reply than I thought I’d type up, but I do definitely feel you on this one. I apologize for getting back to this a few months later; we kinda got caught up in developing the Halloween HC. Rest assured that I’ll be putting this in our staff chat’s requests channel, and thanks for the suggestion post! ^_^

4

This seems like the obvious solution, then. I just double-checked–even back in Explorers, sketch doesn’t copy full movesets in PMD.

Was a post of someone else claiming smeargle is overpowered deleted? Because that’s the exact opposite of what the original poster is claiming.

I disagree. Abilities such as Cloud Nine and Honey Gather are out of Smeargle’s reach, and it’s also not a ghost type–so it doesn’t cover wall-crossing for teams without a ghost, potentially using up an item slot with a mobile scarf. All in all, it would still be outclassed in certain roles by pokemon such as Altaria, Rotom, and Ribombee.

Don’t get me wrong–it’ll be a viable, and potentially even very strong support with access to some unique move combinations–but you’d be hard pressed to convince me it’s going to dethrone our resident support god Altaria any time soon.

5

Well, after reading your assessment post Leo, I do have to agree with a lot of those points. Even with some powerful move combinations, it’s still sorely lacking the abilities that other supports like Altaria are sought after for, and lacking in stats/typing to make an effective offensive moveset (Echoed Voice, Tail Slap, Thrash, Petal Dance, and Outrage are the most notable attacking moves that come to mind taking advantage of Smeargle’s own ability set and/or Normal typing).

I suspect the “broken” elements might come via combinations involving OHKO moves, and ways to boost your accuracy (e.g. Telekinesis). PMU is kinda weird when it comes to that, and even with the short range of a OHKO, just having that option to take down almost anything in 2 turns is a scary thought. Then again, bossfights are usually “stunlock or perish”, so as soon as you get your first hit in you’ve usually won anyways.

Also, don’t forget about the currently non-functional family item to make SRs easier to find. If we ever fix that (and that’s a pretty huge “if” tbh), suddenly that potentially opens up a whole new support role that Smeargle’s effectively the king in. Even if we don’t change Sketch to allow for fine-tuned movesets, having that fam item work as intended would give it a role that few others could attain, and none quite as versatile.

6

Sure, it’s probably worth playing devil’s advocate a bit here, but as far as bosses are concerned… There are far easier ways to “cheese” them.

By speccing Smeargle for mind reader OHKO shenanigans or anything like that, you’re carrying 2 moves that are pretty useless everywhere else. PMU isn’t really about whittling down huge health bars; attempts to force that kind of gameplay via bosses hasn’t exactly panned out all that well–to which I’m sure you can agree.

I’m sure it’d be viable, yeah. But even considering that, I’m not sure why being able to occupy such a niche requires Sketch to be horribly gimped from its original incarnation.

Overall, I really doubt Smeargle is going to either crowd out the competition or break the game in half if it’s just allowed to do what it was designed to. Quite frankly, I wouldn’t be surprised if the behavior of Sketch in PMU being the way it is for all this time just came down to technical limitations back in the day.

7

I quite agree, the bosses aren’t exactly cheese-proof from other means too. I don’t think it was actually meant to be intended to Clear Smog or Haze the stat boosts off of them, but that’s how it works, I guess…and I doubt that will change on a fundamental level in the foreseeable future.

I’ll see if we can sit down as staff and have a serious conversation about Sketch at some point, because I do think it would be neat to open things up and make it more versatile. From what I’ve talked about it so far though, it really does seem like a technical implementation issue for the most part. And I’m not sure if we’ll have the means to do any such changes quickly if we do decide to rework Sketch.

1 Like
8

I have to agree with Leo on most of what he said.

Instead of fulfilling smeargle’s role as a pokémon, the solution being offered is it’s family item which is meant for an entire different purpose. How exactly is this a solution?

Smeargle will not break the game when there’s far more useful pokémon than him. This game is more about abilities and typings, I must say. If you can go 4x speed, have an ability like Frisk, Honey Gather, Cloud Nine, THEN you’re a very useful pokémon. Smeargle wouldn’t be used as a mobile scarfer, even if it had the right moveset for it. It’s typing allows him only to go 2x speed, and not even in clear weather. Clear weather is the strongest weather for speedrunning, while some other weathers might hold more power in combat. Normal type doesn’t really have much of a benefit of any of these.

Anyway, I’m not sure, but I think long ago Smeargle was able to sketch per move. But players started sketching staff only moves which turned into chaos. Don’t quote me on this if I’m wrong lol

1 Like
9

Huh. This would be news to me, but I wouldn’t doubt that it actually happened given PMU’s lengthy history. I’ll have to ask Kirk if he remembers anything.

Anyways…I agree that this game is about the overall utility of the Pokemon, and I would believe simply changing Sketch to allow for fine-tuned movesets could give it lots of flexibility, but not enough utility to see meta usage. Hence why I thought the family item could use some work to make it functional and thus give it actual utility.

…But maybe that’s too much, because if those fam items actually worked then we’d have to likely rebalance a lot of SR rates to account for them being easier to find. It’d be enough work on that front to pull us away from doing other potentially more useful things for the overall experience.

So yeah, if we do anything, I’ll see if it can be to simply rework sketch for now to sketch a single move. Would take some convincing though, I think, that it would be okay if we do it right. At the very least, I wouldn’t want to enable any change that’d make it possible to sketch staff moves. <:)