Trip Traps: Should they immobilize you for one second?

[Syni]

This has been a much discussed topic on the PMU Discord, but there hasn’t been a topic on it on the forums to properly get to a consensus about it.

Trip Traps are traps that make you drop an item on the ground - they are intended to be a minor hindrance to make you waste time, basically. However, the real scary part of these traps is that, when they occur just before you enter the stairs, they can make you lose your held item altogether in case you don’t notice the trap quick enough and accidentally enter the next floor. This can be especially scary when using a mon with double or quadruple speed.

Making them immobilize you for a second gives players the opportunity to notice they’ve been hit by a trip trap so these traps can’t potentially cost you your tight belt or other expensive item. That, in my opinion, sounds like a more fair way for these traps to exist. I hope to gather some opinions on this thread!

[shadowlucario50]

As long as it doesn’t remove your ability to use moves during immobilization and only freezes your movement, I’m all for it!

[Demetrius]

Or maybe we could get triggering trip traps to lock the stairs for awhile immediately after? and have it show a message like “You were recently trip trapped, make sure you don’t forget any valuable items!”

[veezo]

I’m probably in the minority but I think trip traps are fine the way they are.

Can’t deny it stings when you randomly fall victim to one but when you look at the wider picture, they do contribute a decent amount in running the already rusted cogs of the PMU economy. An item lost means an item to be farmed/bought.

Is it really that unfair when the chance of actually losing your item is gated by a bunch of factors like
i) being careful before hitting the stairs, ii) party members looking out for you, iii) the odds of even spawning a trip trap close enough to stairs, iv) your valueable item being a team item.

Even then it occasionally does happen but come on guys, it’s just one item. It doesn’t empty a page of your inventory or take stuff from your storage. In 90% of the cases you’re very capable to get back the item you may have lost, albeit with a little time or money.

Okay but can we improve the trip trap just a little bit?

Just by a fraction, but yes:

1. Have a clear and preferably eye-catching red text saying the player has tripped and dropped their item in the chatlog as opposed to the current yellow text which is no different than voluntarily dropping your item.
2. Make the tripping sound a little more noticeable than a short “click”.
3. Have an emote used by your character as extra visual indicator similar to using moves with no PP, since that has clearly helped a lot of people. (eg: the /!? surprised emote)
4. Continue having trip traps not spawn in a 1x1 range around the stairs, and if seen essential consider expanding the range of this exception.

Consider it a possible hurdle to rushing, consider it an asset to the gameplay loop but don’t write it off as unfair. It is a necessary evil and one we can learn to deal with. Therefore I’d say not to nerf the trip trap with immobilization so that it’s reduced to nothing but a 1 second delay in your dungeoning adventure. However do consider tweaks for more defined feedback (visual/audio) if found necessary as mentioned in the dropdown.

[Kirk]

I’m pretty sure I can make the trap more noticible with out having to add any delays really and not nerf the trap. ie by what you suggested, even if it’s a simple ‘x tripped’ message

[Deleca]

@veezo

I’m probably in the minority but I think trip traps are fine the way they are.

^
Just because some people go too far about Trip Traps doesn’t mean they need to be changed.

they do contribute a decent amount in running the already rusted cogs of the PMU economy.

They absolutely do. I once said In Discord:
"I like trip traps as a way to reduce the amount of an Item In the game ( mainly like mc since so many people have It now or multiples ) and what drayden said

losing your item is the only thing that would get people back in certain dungeons"

I don’t understand how this can be a bad thing. This Is coming from someone who has lost Tight Belts, and someone who Is the friend of someone else who has lost their Tight Belts, Including my own when I gave It to them to borrow. I’ve been trying to get mine back Instead of complaining that Trip Traps make this game literally unplayable. ( but I won’t hesitate to complain that Deoxys has not once dropped a Tight Belt for me since trying to get one aagagagaga )

When I sent that Discord message Tirtouga B responded saying ( multiple messages formatted to be readable ):
“I don’t like trip traps for that role, but they’re the only fulfiller of that role atm
They also are the only big resistance to experienced players when rushing dungeons
It’s no secret that players can beat sf in less than half an hour
They’re not a satisfying option is the problem
Garden takes 20 for me, could be as little as 15 without trip trap”

This to me Is saying that “Trip Traps are bad because they’re annoying and an Inconvenience which Is the entire point of traps”. As someone who rushes dungeons all the time I know It’s annoying, I’ve also lost multiple Mobile Scarves, but If you’re rushing then you’re rushing, you’re not being careful and things are bound to happen. If everyone Is so annoyed just make Gastrodon meta or something because It gets 4x speed, Recover, and Sticky Hold.

Is it really that unfair when the chance of actually losing your item is gated by a bunch of factors like
i) being careful before hitting the stairs, ii) party members looking out for you, iii) the odds of even spawning a trip trap close enough to stairs, iv) your valueable item being a team item.

No It Is not. Yeah yeah, It’s hard to react quick enough If Trip Traps are near the stairs, but oh well, stuff happens. It’s not always Impossible to react quick enough. And If you’re In a party It’s really hard to lose Items via Trip Traps unless you’re stupid like me and lost a Tight Belt because It was dropped due to a Trip Trap and you entered the stairs without yourself or your party member remembering. And I know, your party member(s) could already be on the stairs and you step on a Trip Trap near the stairs and go In, but the chance to lose Items via Trip Traps Is still lower. Your party member could react faster than you for example, and move off before you can move on.

Okay but can we improve the trip trap just a little bit?

Just by a fraction, but yes:

1. Have a clear and preferably eye-catching red text saying the player has tripped and dropped their item in the chatlog as opposed to the current yellow text which is no different than voluntarily dropping your item.
2. Make the tripping sound a little more noticeable than a short “click”.
3. Have an emote used by your character as extra visual indicator similar to using moves with no PP, since that has clearly helped a lot of people. (eg: the /!? surprised emote)
4. Continue having trip traps not spawn in a 1x1 range around the stairs, and if seen essential consider expanding the range of this exception.

Like you said Initially In your reply I think Trip Traps are fine but playing the /!? effect when you step on one I like the Idea of because Its sound Is loud, which Incorporates suggestion 2 as well. I don’t think Trip Traps need to be nerfed to spawn less close to the stairs. Note that all traps aside from Wonder Tiles follow the “can’t spawn on any of the 8 tiles around stairs” rule, It’s all or none. I don’t feel like 1 would help that much, If you’re hitting a Trip Trap you probably weren’t looking at the chat. On paper It might seem like It’d help just by being present but It still boils down to the reflexes of the player. You can probably react faster by seeing/hearing the trap Itself.

[Chrollo]

didn’t players literally ask for this because they were crying about losing items and now u wanna remove it ? :>

[Syni]

@veezo

Can’t deny it stings when you randomly fall victim to one but when you look at the wider picture, they do contribute a decent amount in running the already rusted cogs of the PMU economy. An item lost means an item to be farmed/bought.

@Deleca

I don’t like trip traps for that role, but they’re the only fulfiller of that role atm

I can’t say I agree with this notion that the trap should be kept the same for the sake of fixing the economy,or because there are no other things in the game that fulfil this role. That seems like fixing a flat tire with duct tape - I’m sure the economy problems stem from other areas. Fainting in a dungeon should be the thing that loses you items, not an unfortunate encounter with a trap, in my opinion.

@veezo

Consider it a possible hurdle to rushing, consider it an asset to the gameplay loop but don’t write it off as unfair. It is a necessary evil and one we can learn to deal with.

@Deleca

This to me Is saying that “Trip Traps are bad because they’re annoying and an Inconvenience which Is the entire point of traps

There’s a difference between an annoyance/inconvenience (like an explosion or a confusion trap) and a trap that has a small chance of being in an unfortunate enough spot to lose you a valuable item because of how it exists in the game.

Sure, it combats ‘‘rushing’’, but whether you’re rushing or not you sometimes can’t help that there’s a pitfall trap 1 tile away from the trip trap (it DOES happen and it’s not that uncommon in smaller rooms). There’s just too much variance in how this trap could mess you up for me to be able to say it’s good game design as it currently is.

I’ve only ever lost 2 items (not valuable ones) to the traps, but is it because I’m careful or just because I’m lucky? The 2 times I did lose items I didn’t feel like I could react quickly enough because they were super close to the stairs/pitfall.

@Deleca

And If you’re In a party It’s really hard to lose Items via Trip Traps unless you’re stupid like me and lost a Tight Belt because It was dropped due to a Trip Trap and you entered the stairs without yourself or your party member remembering.

That actually seems like it punishes solo running more than party running for an arbitrary reason, because you’re entirely right - I don’t hesitate to bring my tight belt to party runs as much as to solo runs!

@Deleca

Note that all traps aside from Wonder Tiles follow the “can’t spawn on any of the 8 tiles around stairs” rule

That’s actually more than I thought and makes the argument for not making the traps delay you a little stronger. You can still hit pitfall traps as close as 1 tile towards them, though.

@Kirk

I’m pretty sure I can make the trap more noticible with out having to add any delays really and not nerf the trap. ie by what you suggested, even if it’s a simple ‘x tripped’ message

That would be nice either way! And maybe a /! emote too as veezo and Deleca suggested, not only is it more noticable but also a fitting reaction for your character to have when tripping.

I still lean towards the side of making it harder for these ‘‘unfortunate trip trap incidents’’ to happen, mainly because I see the arguments for not doing it as trying to fix another part of the game that should be addressed separately.

I’m personally a huge fan of hard and challenging things in the game, and also to think about more downsides to rushing dungeons (hi mobile scarf) but this trap itself seems a little disproportionate in what it can do when you compare it to every other trap in the game.

[Demetrius]

I’ll repeat the locking the stairs for the first time you step on them just giving a warning like “You were trip trapped make sure you don’t forget any valuables!” is a pretty good idea especially if as you guys are saying don’t want a direct nerf to the trap. Even if this messages only occurs if you didn’t pick up the item. The main games at least have a “Do you want to continue?” each stairs I feel like this isn’t asking to much in comparison.

[Deleca]

@Syni

I can’t say I agree with this notion that the trap should be kept the same for the sake of fixing the economy,or because there are no other things in the game that fulfil this role. That seems like fixing a flat tire with duct tape - I’m sure the economy problems stem from other areas. Fainting in a dungeon should be the thing that loses you items, not an unfortunate encounter with a trap, in my opinion.

So It’s a shame experienced players rarely die, and If they do Escape Ropes exist. Dying Is also rather “unfortunate”. “”“Fixing”“” the economy Isn’t the sole reason obviously but people literally never ever lose their Items unless It’s to a Trip Trap these days. One trap won’t fix the entire economy. But It helps and I still can’t see that as being a bad thing.

There’s a difference between an annoyance/inconvenience (like an explosion or a confusion trap) and a trap that has a small chance of being in an unfortunate enough spot to lose you a valuable item because of how it exists in the game.

Sure, it combats ‘‘rushing’’, but whether you’re rushing or not you sometimes can’t help that there’s a pitfall trap 1 tile away from the trip trap (it DOES happen and it’s not that uncommon in smaller rooms). There’s just too much variance in how this trap could mess you up for me to be able to say it’s good game design as it currently is.

When I made that point I was referring to the “I could do SF In less time” part ( not to mention 80% of the playerbase has Gems pepega ). I don’t actually care that It sometimes “”“”““counters””“”“” rushing, I’m just putting out points I don’t think suck. I get that a Trip Trap + a Pitfall can happen but It’s still so rare. I see two (2) possible ways Trip Traps can mess you up; being too close to the stairs or being too close to a Pitfall. Are Pitfalls bad game design because they can make you miss for example a shiny, or mission floor, or a key that’s needed or a Sealed Chamber floor? Probably, now that I’ve brought It up.

I’ve only ever lost 2 items (not valuable ones) to the traps, but is it because I’m careful or just because I’m lucky? The 2 times I did lose items I didn’t feel like I could react quickly enough because they were super close to the stairs/pitfall.

When I think “being careful” I think walking to the stairs and not running straight Into them, so probably the latter. People who complain about Trip Traps don’t try to be careful from what I can tell so that’s just how It Is.

That actually seems like it punishes solo running more than party running for an arbitrary reason, because you’re entirely right - I don’t hesitate to bring my tight belt to party runs as much as to solo runs!

Can’t feel punishing If you’re careful but seriously Idk how to respond. Everything can be seen as punishing In one way or another. Explosion Traps punish party running If you all happen to be near the trap, life punishes people who exist…

I still lean towards the side of making it harder for these ‘‘unfortunate trip trap incidents’’ to happen, mainly because I see the arguments for not doing it as trying to fix another part of the game that should be addressed separately.

I already attempted to address this. In the end I don’t mind completely nerfing Trip Traps changing Trip Traps so that It’s harder to lose your Item I guess? But people act like It’s the end of humanity If something remotely unlucky to them happens. Losing your Item may not be your fault but a lot of things aren’t anyone’s fault. PP-Zero Traps are bad because It depleted my aoe when I was about to use It and I died. Spike/Chestnut/Selfdestruct Traps are bad because I was at low HP and died. Simply dying Isn’t comparable to losing your Item but you understand what I’m saying. Everything that was fine before seems to be some sort of major Issue now. 100s are no longer something to be proud of, status Immunity ruins the game, etc.

@Demetrius

The main games at least have a “Do you want to continue?” each stairs I feel like this isn’t asking to much in comparison.

Asking If you want to continue while solo/pausing Is something I suggested once funnily enough, and even more funny Is that It was because I lost something to a Trip Trap. I would still like to see this too.

[Syni]

I can definitely see your side of the argument, and I think a confirmation upon entering the stairs would be a good middle option, and would also make sense as that’s how it is in the PMD games too. I see there’s a bit of a stigma on this topic though from the way your response is written, which is arguably because of the many discord discussions there were about it. I just wanna clarify that I’m not that personally invested into nerfing trip traps, I actually don’t think they’re a MAJOR issue the way they are. I just like to discuss about what is is and what isn’t healthy for the game. That’s where this topic came from (from me at least!).

[Demetrius]

Trip traps alone aren’t problematic, they are only an issue in the main PMD when placed next explosion traps, and they are only an issue in PMU when next to stairs, rain, damp, and a few other things prevent them in PMD, but PMU only really has Sticky Hold and trap scarfs, and they are definitely over used to deal with this singular problem, much more than Damp and rain are used to deal with them in PMD.
So I see it as more of a stairs issue.

[Turtwig_B]

My personal opinion on the trip trap is that while it does perform the role of giving people reasons to reenter a dungeon, it’s not a really satisfying way of doing it. I think a good comparison is a trap that had a chance of making you release your highest level Pokemon. Sure it could make you go back to that dungeon it’s in (assuming it’s not an HC exclusive…) but it could just as easily completely demotivate you. This comparison is obviously not perfect - you can buy items but you can’t buy Pokemon and etc, but I think the point is there.

I think this change is a good middle ground, but I also think more alternatives should be looked into for providing that motivation, which in the future could allow the trip trap to function more like knock off than a complete drop. If that can happen, then the lack of a delay or anything like that should be fine. Alternatively, making the trap visible by default could be a nice way of offering a way to play around the trap before getting into it, but then I guess it’s just put into an awkward spot.

[Demetrius]

@Turtwig_B

allow the trip trap to function more like knock off than a complete drop.

There is actually a good argument for this since knock off works the same as trip trap in the most recent PMD, it’s silly they don’t work the same in PMU.

There are definitely multiple solutions to this problem.

[Kayu0]

Trip traps are the main reason why lending items outside of friends isn’t a thing.
Personally I’m not scared that they might keep it, I’m scared that might lose it, and I’ve been the one to lose one such item once, it genuinely felt awful.
That’s the main reason why I’d want them nerfed to an annoyance, not a “oh hey you remember the 20 runs in SF for this item? In the toilet they go!”
Only my opinion of course.

[Stormy]

Jumping into an old topic but oh well.

I understand that there is already a delay on them but honestly it’s just sometimes not enough (especially when considering lag is a factor). I’ve lost items to trip traps before, the best being a tight belt (trap was conveniently as close as possible to the stairs as it could have been).

As far as addressing the issue is the bigger problem. I think simply removing the item akin to Knock Off as Turt suggested is the best possible solution. The trap still does what it was intended to do. Infact I’m going to guess that the only reason it doesn’t do this now is because Knock Off was non-functional for a long time so in order to get the trap to work it simply just removed the item from the player’s inventory (Granted, that’s just an assumption).

I’m all for difficulty in dungeons and would like that. However Trip Traps don’t really make things difficult and just make things frustrating. Here are two scenarios

• You’re rushing a dungeon & rush towards the stairs but end up stepping on a Slumber Trap & the wild Pokemon in the room destroy you while you’re incapacitated.

• You’re rushing a dungeon & rush towards the stairs but step on a trip trap as close to the stairs as it can be. You make it to the next floor but you just lost the item you spent a lot of money on.

First scenario in my opinion is balanced (though tbf Slumber Traps last extremely long but that’s a topic for another thread). It happens with these dungeon crawlers & RNG is all a part of it. Sometimes you’ll get lucky & find the stairs nearby everytime, others you’ll fall into a trap & get taken out.

Second scenario is just frustrating. You still beat the dungeon & got the reward but you lost some of your equipment in a cheeky way. This varies in frustration from player to the player. Sometimes it’s just a stamina band othertimes it’s a pretty valuable item. It also varies depending on how wealthy that person is. “Oh no problem, I can just buy another one” can be the solution for one but not for the other.

I really don’t think the economy argument is really fair. Sure for long time veteran players it might not be that big of an issue & it MAY be a benefit in the long run of things but for the brand new players trip traps can be devastating. Imagine starting fresh & finally saving up to buy some expensive item only to lose it your first time using it.

I understand that people should be more careful but that becomes such a massive slog. Having to walk to the stairs every single time for the last few steps. And not everyone is always in a party and will have teammates to look out for them.

I think better ways to fix the economy can be found but causing frustration & grief among players isn’t the answer. It’s just not fair or fun. It doesn’t make dungeons difficult all it is, is an annoyance.

I’d personally rather see trip traps just unequip the item the Pokemon is holding, increase the radius that trip traps cannot spawn near stairs a bit more, play a very distinct SOUND effect (people react faster to sound), or have a slightly longer delay.

[Syni]

5 days isn’t that old! And I agree with you that a trap meant as a hindrance shouldn’t be overly punishing in the way that it is right now, because I think that’s very much an unintended interaction (with the stairs not having a confirmation message). So, I agree with the gist of your post. Difficulty and hardships within the game are certainly very welcome for me, but in ways that feel like you can do something about it to change the outcome.