Does Sky Fortress really need a Flying-Type requirement?

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Hello, I’m just gonna talk about something that has always bothered me. It’s Sky Fortress’s flying type requirement. I can understand this restriction for a dungeon like Mt.Stormhold since it’s not really a “major” dungeon. It’s just one that grants you access to Sky Fortress and you’re meant to get through it quickly and the Flying-type restriction makes sense there.

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All I wanna do is enter the dungeon with my main team, but I can’t. Not because of a limited party restriction (i.e “You are limited to two Pokemon for this dungeon”) but because none of my Pokemon are flying.

Not only is this just annoying since I’m not that big of a fan of Flying types and only have one trained up (and it’s not even strong enough for SF at that) It just doesn’t make any sense to me. You already flew to get to the dungeon, what more flying do you need to do? Is your one flying type literally carrying your entire team throughout the dungeon?

Most of Sky Fortress is all solid ground. The only “Cloud” I can remember is the fairy section and even then the Pokemon such as Gardevoir get by just fine without being Flying-type. (Same goes for all the Fire, Ice, and Electric-types) So it just seems odd to me why you need a Flying-type.

Of course, those reasons are more or less aesthetic, however I will say that it is just annoying and makes things rather unfun. It’s better IMO for players to use the teams they want and have built, especially for dungeons that are as long as 99f. Restricting a player’s team this way just seems like a slap in the face for a dungeon as long as this one. Not every player will have a Flying type that is suitable for this dungeon.

I’m really not sure what else to say. It’s just a bit annoying is all and I’m sure I’m not the only one who feels this way. Feel free to chime in with your own thoughts. All that said, I do hope that this can change in the future and the dungeon can be less restrictive and a bit more fun.

EDIT: I should go into a tiny bit more detail. I feel like the flying type restriction isn’t that difficult. It’s not hard to get through a dungeon with just 3 Pokemon, especially when the one flying type you have you just force to hold an item and call it done. It’s just annoying is all I feel like.

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One time at the entrance an Idea sparked In my head.

In the Rescue Team games, you needed the HM Fly with you to return to Sky Tower when you beat It once. I’m not sure If this means just having the HM Item Itself with you, or something that knows It In your party when attempting to go, since I never tried going back on my copy of the game ( or had Fly at all ). I thought though, that this would be better than being forced to have a Flying-type on your team.

The original Idea was “Wow, It would make more sense If you only needed something that can learn Fly/has Fly”. But this wouldn’t make much of a difference In terms of more things you can use. I only thought of It because I know Flygon Is popular and would be a blessing for people who actively use It. On the other hand, there are still Flying-types that cannot learn Fly. Most people do just have Altaria or something that can learn Fly anyways, though…

So I realized It wasn’t a great solution. But maybe, It could only require having a Fly HM with you or something along those lines. It would take up a bag slot, but I’m sure It’s better than taking up a party slot which you only get 4 of? That or, they just allow Levitate Pokemon to go In, for more diversity.

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Having to keep HM Fly with you would be an alteratnive I’m okay with and I do remember something about that in Red Rescue team. Unfortunately I no longer have my cart so I can’t test I myself but from some videos I looked up on Youtube of people recruiting Raqyuaza it looks like you don’t need a Pokemon that knows Fly with you (The video I saw was just a Blastoise and a Typholsion, maybe he did have one and just told it to back home once he was in the dungeon?).

Though my mindset behind it is, you already flew to the dungeon when you used the shortcut and went up the path with all those thunder clouds. I think that should be the extent of needing a Flying-type but carrying the HM Fly in your bag is an alternative I’d be happy to accept.

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Something to keep in mind though, is that some of the rooms right before the 3 legendary bird bosses require a pokemon able to cross water/lava to be able to collect all of the unown stones and proceed.

If the flying type requirement ends up being lifted, these rooms could do with some edits to prevent players from getting stuck after climbing 99 floors only to be denied their boss fight and respective orb.

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Also:

I think you meant Sky Fortress.

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I did yes, thank you for pointing that out. I’ll fix it. and to your previous post I honestly never even noticed those, I always just use the flying type to kill the Unown to save on PP. Those would have to be changed too.

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GIven it’s a SKY fortress I think it makes a lot of sense to need a flying pokemon… I may be biased because my main is Togekiss, but it makes sense to me. Most people use Altaria anyway. Though I don’t think SF is an ideal training spot anyway, there so many better options to train one’s main team.

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You could make that argument with Skylift then. It just doesn’t seem that fair is all, like I said not every player has or even wants to use a Flying-type. While most players do have an Altaria or something there are plenty who don’t. And I don’t think SF not being optimal for training (I think it’s actually pretty good for Water-types) really matters in this topic, people would still run it for the rewards.

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Sky Fortress was not created to be a training dungeon, it was always meant to be a challenge dungeon much like Harmonic Tower and Tanren Chambers. The purpose was to task players to conquer 99 floors and battle Legendary Pokemon to unlock new paths, get access to exclusive recruits and items. However, the nature of the dungeon itself in how it hosts multiple type paths and consists of a lot of floors along with items and Pokemon that are coveted naturally meant that players would run it over and over again allowing it to gain the faux grinding reputation that it currently has.

PMU really lacks any genuine challenge or difficulty. There really is no dungeon (save for HT) that requires much skill that can not be conquered by being overpowered or carrying specific items. Staff impose restrictions like having no items or set level or even ask you to sacrifice a slot in your team to create a sense of challenge and add a layer difficulty (albiet not the most interesting kind of challenge). It is for the same reason that BOSSES have +1000 HP and buffs. To make dungeons harder.

You might be starting to join the dots here, yes for a dungeon like Sky Fortress that is meant to challenge players it sounds extremely appropriate for you to have a flying type or at least one that can learn fly (this restriction makes more sense honestly). If you find it ‘annoying’ which let me translate is PMU’s way of making dungeons ‘tougher’ then consider training elsewhere for a while or re-evaluate your dungeon team.

PS: Read a lot of posts about Altaria. What about Drifblim! It can learn Fly, mobility across all types so you can walk across all terrains AND walls, can learn refresh (egg move HS) and can also recycle grimy into real food.

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Nothing about SF is challenging though, it’s very easy to blow through with just one Pokemon (Omastar in my case). Forcing the player to bring a Flying-type isn’t a valid reason for a challenge since plenty of players have flying types at the ready. You’re just hurting the minority who don’t. It’s hardly a “challenge” when 80% of people aren’t affected since they’re bringing Altaria anyway.

If you want to make a challenging dungeon I’d be more than happy to play it but make a restriction like up to two Pokemon only or something. It’s just not fun. Challenges and difficulty are good but should be fair and fun.

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I’m not sure I follow. What is “faux grinding reputation” supposed to mean? Because it’s certainly worth grinding. I can try to start taking logs of my exp/loot per floor/hour once I start more actively running it again if you’d like.

Last I checked you can bring items into HT. (And that was less than a week ago) In fact, stat boosting silks/dusts are stronger than usual in HT given that they provide a flat stat bump rather than a %-based increase, leaving them much more powerful at HT’s forced level 30 range than they are at higher levels.

I’m also not really sure how locking players to Drifblim, Altaria, or even a deadweight slot enhances any “challenge” SF might hold, given how it’s easily by far one of the most self-sustaining dungeons in the game, spitting out so many max ethers, big apples, and reviver seeds that I have to sell them off to Kecleon after just a few runs to spare my poor storage space, and nothing inside is a particularly serious threat even when going in with no items whatsoever. (With the exception of some pokemon in SF Fire, due to the sun boosting their most dangerous moves significantly) Why would I need to switch when my main runner will have plenty of supplies to work with?

And yet, it has a vastly superior payout in terms of relics, TMs, dusts, along with even Miracle Chests and Golden Masks in Garden. Most of which it “borrows” from other dungeons that would otherwise have their main selling points be access to these items.

But I’m getting carried away here. I’ll refrain from going off too much more about why I think SF needs to be reworked, because it really deserves its own thread, (which it will get soon enough) given the amount of problems I’d argue it has in its current state.

I disagree. In many cases, such as most HC dungeons and TC, the restrictions in play define the entire experience and can compliment more “vanilla” dungeons rather well.

I don’t think that’s quite the case. Tedium is not synonymous with difficulty, and this has been a major theme in discussions initiated both by the staff team and general playerbase as of late.

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I’ve run into this problem quite a few times, and it’s even more tragic for me due to the Pokémon I have on my main team: Ribombee (a bug with wings who cannot fly over terrain), Flygon (a dragon with wings and Levitate who could learn Fly if I wanted to waste a slot otherwise used for attacking), and Mismagius (a levitating ghost), and Whimsicott (a cotton ball that canonically rides winds). Despite the fact that all four of them can fly or float (while two has the mechanics equal to passive flying), I’m unable to enter the dungeon with my main team without a flying type. Additionally, my team is always carrying dead weight due — even when I use Altaria, as I use a Clear Rock and always set Ribombee to enter floors instead. So yes, I would also like for this restriction to be looked at.

This is also something that confuses me. With most dungeons that require an HM move, you have to use the HM to get there, then you no longer need the HM. For some, you will still need it, but you’re able to escape via warp pad in the section before you do, in case you need it to advance. Sky Fortress seems to fit into the first category, but then puts an additional restriction for what seems like little rhyme or reason.

And to add to this, there are plenty of other non-flying types that can learn Fly — Golurk being the most memorable example, and Volcarona being one of the most powerful. Additionally, Magnet Rise grants the same benefits as Levitate, which grants the passive movement options that all Flying types receive. So if the problem is the terrain after the 99th floor, then all of these would be viable answers.

Perhaps, but there is a vastly wider selection of Pokémon who can (and possibly more that should, but that’s a topic for another day) go over water than just Flying types. Ghosts and levitators for general use, fire types for lava tiles, and water types for water tiles. Putting the restriction to just Flying types, in my opinion, ignores these other equally viable options simply to have a restriction.

And I enjoy going through it. But I feel there’s a disconnect between us when it comes to what a “challenge” is. When Leostel and I run SF, it takes us at least an hour and a half while we’re both decked out with items and in prime form; the many different type floors in this dungeon tend to give us trouble — especially Fire (which we need to go through to finish missions), Dragon, Dark, and Fairy. I don’t remember a single run where one of us avoided getting KOed, even with all its self-sustaining nature that Leostel mentioned in his response here. However, it is a dungeon with a predictable yet straightforward gimmick involving high-level foes. That inherently makes it grindable. And with ten floors of transition in three of the paths (only five on the way to Garden), food is very much not an issue. That allows people to throw revive items at the dungeon, which they could probably replenish with the money from all of the unwanted TMs, relics, dusts, diamonds, random pickups (horder bait) that you can sell afterwards. The entrance restriction does little to mitigate this.

Alas, I’m getting off topic here.

But you need to have a Pokémon with Fly to get to Sky Fortress anyway. You physically cannot access Sky Fortress without one. The restriction to enter Sky Fortress without a flyin types as well is confusing and overly restrictive, considering the physical barrier that’s already in place.

There are plenty of different ways to increase difficulty without affecting annoyance levels. I completely agree with Leostel here:

This restriction is less a challenge and more a push towards what the established metagame is, which Stormy brought up:

I believe I understand what the idea was with Sky Fortress, and I do enjoy it every now and then; I also don’t think the Flying-type restriction adds anything to the challenge nor the flavor of the dungeon. With that in mind, I think it would be a good idea to either adjust the restriction to allow for more creative methods of overcoming the proposed challenge, or to remove the restriction altogether and let the physical barrier speak for itself.

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I’d hate to bump my own thread but I was hoping for staff opinion on this, even if it is against what most people would like to see.

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I’ll bump too :frog:

Even though I don’t really like the restriction, it needs to say there for new players that want to complete the dungeon. Like someone said before you need a flying type to beat the dungeon, so imagine if a new guy goes through 99 floors just to realize they need a flying/levitate pokemon they might/might not have. That would be infuriating gameplay imo.

As far as dungeon difficulty goes, the flying type restriction gets nullified because there’s an assembly after flr 50. So you’re only really restricted the first for 50 floors which is by far easier than the last 50. The assembly kinda solves the team restriction issue, if you have a levitate mon instead then you could use it 50+.

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But it’s a late-game dungeon. Most people at this point will have a teammate that can cross all terrains due to how many dungeons have some sort of water/lava/air terrain to cross. More importantly, most newer players might underestimate the difficulty of the dungeon and not reach that point until they train up. By then, they probably have more dungeoning experience than those that only clear Sour Root Cave and Sauna Cavern. Also, once they reach that point, they’ll learn for the next time if they don’t have it.

It’s really hard to see anyone getting to that late-point without some Pokémon to cross terrain.

Which makes it all the more questionable why the flying-type restriction is there in the first place. If there’s an assembly at F50 to give players a second chance if their flying-type/terrain crosser was defeated, then why would they need that restriction to begin with?

I understand there’s a “theme”, but the restriction really doesn’t do much except be a bother for those who don’t use a flying-type on their team.

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I mean, it should be fairly simple to edit the offending maps to remove the problem either way.

Someone being softlocked because their only pokemon capable of crossing such terrain fainted or they simply didn’t bring one after this restriction is removed is not ideal in the least, I agree.

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I don’t think it needs to stay there. By the time someone has Fly, they’re going to have a flying type. Very few people actualy use the move and instead just slap it on a low level mon they recruited. And like Leo said, the special tiles can be negated easily by a simple map edit. Stark Volcanic Woods end room was edited fairly quickly.

And I don’t think the assembly oversight on the dungeon maker’s part is a fair reason why it should stay.

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Likewise, with the restriction, some people are likely to remove the flying type for their ideal team for such a run once they reach the midpoint — I know I do, especially when I’m doing missions. If, by chance, someone decides to do so and removes the Pokémon that can cross fire, then end up going after Moltres, then they can’t do anything. The initial restriction does nothing to prevent this sort of occurrence either way.

I can definitely agree with this. I’m currently unable to think of a more elegant solution than this.

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Initially when sky fortress was released it did not have an assembly at the midpoint. I’m guessing a staff member decided to add an assembly past flr 50 not knowing it completely contradicted the flying type requirement. If it were up to me, I would’ve removed the contradiction.

Here’s the main grip with this idea in general that I didn’t address before. You’re suggesting to remove the flying requirement because of a -1 in team selection if you don’t carry a flying type and then wanting to edit the map to completely.

Dungeon restrictions aren’t suppose to be fair. If you have a flying type in your main team, great! If you don’t then the dungeon tells you to bring a flying type. Again dungeon restrictions aren’t suppose to be fair. Tanren Mines requires you to have Dig and to have a water/ground type to beat the dungeon…buttttt wait! My main team cant learn dig and none of my members are water/ground type. Let’s just remove that, it’s only fair too right? There’s no dungeon hints to tell you the requirements anyways.

If you want every dungeon to have the same formulaic, boring puzzles and while you run brainless through the dungeon with broken items like crystals globes and gems, sure.

If you prefer to have restrictions like set level, no items, type restrictions, good for you too. I prefer the latter. The last gauntlet zero isle level dungeon was in 2013, Tanren Chambers and just like HT, when the dungeon released, the dungeon was hyped for weeks. Nowadays? New dungeons are lucky to get 3 days of hype, because they use the same formula every. single. time. For the past 5 years.

Is it fair I can bring items to dynamo sands, but not tanren chambers? No, but dungeon restrictions aren’t suppose to be fair. The majority disagree with dungeon difficulty through restrictions because people prefer everything to be easy.(Yeah sorry I’m ranting hard)

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I agree with Translucent. Personally I don’t like level reset or no exp dungeons so I just don’t play them.

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