Refresh, Aromatherapy, Heal Bell

Suggestions and Contributions Moves
1

So there has been discussion regarding these three moves.

What they do now:
Refresh: Removes status conditions from your team and as well as your party if you stand on top of them.

Aromatherapy/Heal Bell: Removes starts conditions from your party.

What they could do:
-All could do the same thing as refresh does now to provide wider variety of support/healing pokemon. The amount of pokemon that can learn refresh is very limited for a move that is a must have.

-Refresh could be team only, aromatherapy party only, heal bell both (vice versa)

  • They should all do the same thing
  • They should all have different functions
  • They should all do the same thing; but have something extra
0 voters

Leave your thoughts and suggestion below!

4 Likes
2

First of all, I agree fully the state of refresh v aroma therapy and heal bell is absolutely something that needs to be shifted. Not only are the later two virtually meaningless in the face of the prior, but the prior being the only available team heal move in the game makes it near essential to have a pokemon who can learn it in your team no matter what, putting a rather nonsensical restriction on the breadth of your team composition options which doesn’t feel in great spirit with the games design.

How we should resolve it however I’d honestly say is very open, the only core necessity is that all the abilities heal your team because that’s the make it or break it of what will make any of them viable/desirable. Whether there is secondary variances to them to keep their identity, like one having lower pp but reaching both party and team, and another having a healing factor plus team refresh but similarly varrying pp is fine, and keeps some flavor to each move if that’s desirable, but they just do need to affect the team.

2 Likes
3

I think this is a good idea. They all have the baseline of healing your team, but each can have something else added to make them unique!

2 Likes
4

I believe I have a sort of idea as well: (this is just an idea doesn’t mean it’s set in stone)

Refresh, High PP (Current) small range (2 tiles around) to heal both team and allies.

Heal Bell, Low PP (Current) Large Range (10 tiles around) to heal both team and allies.

Aromatherapy, Low PP (Current), Large Range (10 tiles around) Heals just allies, however it can also heal volatile status conditions such as confusion and whatnot.

these are just my thoughts and any improvements or changes could be made to such an idea, again it’s not set in stone.

5 Likes
5

I also really like the idea of playing with the PP and ranges. I didn’t think about that!

6

I like the idea Kirk suggested, balance is a huge factor in this game

7

While I also like your idea, Kirk, I expect most of the opposition will come regarding the move range, particularly for Aromatherapy.
Is there a specific reason you feel the range needs to be reduced on the latter 2 moves?

8

I still firmly believe all the moves should heal a players own team, as anything less wouldn’t help in diversifying team composition choices which I think is far more valuable than giving a single move more personal identity, but the general direction of your suggestions I wouldn’t be against save that one caveat.

9

Like i said it was a rough idea, perhaps if all do heal both, but each one is different in some way.

1 Like
10

I have a lot to say about this topic. A lot. I’m a firm believer that all the moves should act as Refresh does now, that is it heals the users’ other Pokemon as well. It’s something I’ve been asking for years. I may be kicking a dead horse but let me get my points across.

  • Refreshes Limited distribution

The Pokemon that learn Refresh is extremely limited This is going by the list of Pokemon that learn the move, many of the Pokemon that learn it are difficult to obtain (Eevee), Starter Pokemon (So if a player chooses a different starter that cannont learn the move, they’re forced to try and recruit one in the late game). Most of the Pokemon that learn Refresh are Water & Normal types. There are a total of 6 Pokemon that learn Refresh that are not Water or Normal type. three of them are legendary Pokemon so that already limits the players options even more. The remaining three are Chikorita, Natu, Spritzee. Which I’m not even sure is released yet. The Eeveelutions do exist but as I said they’re difficult for newer players to obtain and I’m trying to stick with lowest stage Pokemon for consistency.

These restrictions make party building extremely limited, especially for newer players. I can’t tell you how many times I see a newer player struggle with status conditions and the very first answer they get is “Get a swablu”. Just look around town and see how many players have an Swablu or Altaria. Not a single Pokemon gets used as much and it’s simply because of a single move that is so important to have in this game. If Heal Bell & Aromatherapy worked like Refresh you’d see so much more variety in teams, people would actually be able to use their favorite Pokemon instead of having to dedicate a party slot to a Healer.

  • Heal Bell & Aromatherapy’s varied distribution

Heal Bell has MUCH more variety when it comes to what types of Pokemon a player can use. Electric, Ice, Ghost, Psychic, Fairy, and even Bug. While Aromatherapy also includes Grass & Bug types. (Cutiefly, Paras, Scatterbug, and a few others).

These would give players the breathing room they need in order to make teams of their favorite Pokemon. They may not like any of the Pokemon who learn Refresh but they have better odds of liking a Pokemon that learns Heal Bell or Aromatherapy. It allows for players to use their favorites, use team themes such as Mono types, and ecteria.

Pokemon, especially PMU, should be about fun. It’s fun to use your favorites. I’ve never thought of PMU as a game where you should be forced to conform to a “Meta” of using Swablu on every single team if you happen to not like any of other the normal or water types that learn Refresh. (My idea behind this is if a player already has a Water type such as Whiscash, they are unlikely to run two waters purely for the sake of Refresh)

  • But how should they act?

I personally, and fully believe they should all act how Refresh currently does in the game. A one tile move that heals the User and the other Pokemon in the players roster. I say this because no one, and I mean NO ONE. Used Heal Bell & Aromatherapy for the niche reason of healing teammates. There is absolutely no reason to carry Heal Bell & Aromatherapy since 99% of the time players are going to have a way to deal with status on their own, most often Refresh. No one likes to be dead weight, it’s not a good feeling. Which is why you never see Heal Bell or Aromatherapy get used, it’s only there to support something players don’t want to be.

  • What if Aromatherapy kept this niche ability to heal teammates

Firstly, let me say that I’m not even going to act like this isn’t my own person bias. One of the main reasons want this because one of the Pokemon I use, Parasect, learns this move but is unable to learn Heal Bell. However, it’s not the only Pokemon to learn Aromatherapy but not Heal Bell. There are a few other Pokemon Vivillion, Ribombee, Sawsbuck, and Vileplume all suffer the same issue. So let’s just say that Heal Bell gets changed but Aromatherapy remains unchanged. It’s not that big of a deal but it would be like a slap in the face to players who were hoping to use some of these specific Pokemon. If Heal Bell was buffed and Aromatherapy was unchanged, Aromatherapy would just continue to never be used and be useless move that never sees usage.

  • Closing statements

I really hope this change goes through, it’s something that I think would only benefit the game and make players happy. I was upset with how it was initially handled but now that the forums are back up I’m really hoping to see some change. I really think a “Testing” phase would even be great and appreciated. Possibly just a two week test with the moves buffed, get players feedback on what they liked and didn’t like about it. Possibly test all three of them working the same way, then test the Heal Bell heals room & party, Refresh heals party, and Aromatherapy heals room proposal as well.

End of the day, I really hope that all three of the moves act the same way. Purely for the sake of simplicity and team variety for players to use. Thank you for reading.

2 Likes
11

I like the idea of all of them healing both team & allies but with an effect that makes them unique and different enough from one another. Have you considered doing a testing phase for something like this? The idea is very interesting.

2 Likes
12

I disagree with the notion that all these moves should act like Refresh. It’s already been discussed in discord before, but I did write my old proposal down for later, though someone beat me to the punch, obviously. XP

My proposal was to have Heal Bell be a Team and Party Heal, Aromatherapy be a Party Heal (Party as in, other players) and Refresh to basically stay as it is. This would keep their purposes and niches intact.

For balancing purposes, and to give the moves a bit more uniqueness to them, I also proposed that:

  • Heal Bell stays 15 PP, possibly nerfed to 10 PP, Aromatherapy gets buffed to 30 PP, Refresh stays at 30 PP
  • Refresh should basically stay the same, keep it at own tile range
  • Heal Bell should have a 2-panel range (Same as Dazzling Gleam/Dark Pulse)
  • Aromatherapy should have an 8-panel range (Same as Blizzard/Heat Wave)

The reason I propose these buffs/nerfs is essentially to keep them viable over one another in certain situations. Heal Bell will obviously be the superior option for players playing “optimally” I suppose, but it’s smaller amount of PP and nerfed range (From what it was originally, an 8 panel range?) will make Aromatherapy a bit more viable for players who like to play support and don’t want to down ethers constantly and also want to support from a safer distance. Obviously, if you’re running solo most of the time, Refresh will be the best for you.

That was the original proposal, however, I want to update it slightly by incorporating Aromatherapy’s ability to heal volatile status ailments, however, keeping that ability exclusive to Aromatherapy.
I think the rest of what I proposed should still stand, as this only adds to Aromatherapy’s viability over Heal Bell and Refresh.

So in essence:

  • Heal Bell: 15/10 PP, Dazzling Gleam range, Team and Party Heal
  • Aromatherapy: 30 PP, Blizzard/Heatwave range, Party Heal (Party as in other players), Heals Volatile statuses
  • Refresh: Doesn’t need any buffs/nerfs and is perfectly fine as is.

For those of you about to counter that making all of these moves act like Refresh gives more flexibility as to who can be clerics, I put together a list of pokemon that learn Refresh, Heal Bell, and Aromatherapy. This list was cross-referenced with both Bulbapedia and Serebii. Legendaries aren’t included for obvious reasons.

As you can see, everyone and their brother learns Heal Bell compared to the amount of pokemon that learn Refresh and Aromatherapy. So theoretically, all of these pokemon can be “cleric/support mons”.

Of special note:

  • Cleffa fam, Petilil fam, Flabebe fam, Swirlix fam, Comfey, gets Aroma and Heal Bell,
  • Chikorita gets Aroma and Refresh
  • Audino, Swablu gets Heal Bell and Refresh
  • Spritzee, Chansey, gets all three moves

I could be missing a few, I am human after all, feel free to correct me. Either way, it is not a coincidence that some of the listed mons are all popular choices by players to use as their clerics. I don’t see how homogenizing moves and Pokemon = more flexibility. Pokemon are different precisely so they can play different roles. Some are obviously going to be better, more popular, and more used than others, there’s 700+ of the buggers after all. Just because everyone chooses to use Altaria and Chansey, as their cleric doesn’t mean we need more flexibility, it just means that Altaria and Chansey are good at their jobs. They’re literally built to be clerics.

All in all I think the above changes to Heal Bell and Aromatherapy will greatly enhance the multiplayer aspect of PMU when it comes to dungeons with others.

2 Likes
13

The homogenizing (which isn’t even essential as most seem comfortable with the abilities having unique quirks, just to a margin) of moves as you phrase it helps with flexibility because team composition is a far more creative category than a choice between three moves. There are far more pokemon team compositions that become viable as a product of making these moves act similarly, than there is the flexible interactions by making these three moves act entirely uniquely, and that should without question take a higher precedence over more niche interests like keeping them all fresh seeming.

2 Likes
14

Firstly one, thank you for putting that spread sheet together. It shows good reference for how many options players can potentially have. However I disagree with

I don’t see how homogenizing moves and Pokemon = more flexibility. Pokemon are different precisely so they can play different roles. Some are obviously going to be better, more popular, and more used than others, there’s 700+ of the buggers after all.

It does add more flexibility, the issue you propose now simply makes Heal Bell the all around superior choice, while making Refresh less desirable, and leaving Aromatherapy in the dust. I would like for all three of the moves to have the simple effect of acting as a Team Heal. Them having unique effects that separate themselves is a good concept though.

Again let me clarify that NO ONE and I mean NO ONE uses Heal Bell or Aromatherapy for the purpose of supporting teammates. It’s an extremely niche move that gets no usage simply due to the fact that everyone carries has their own way of dealing status on their own. There isn’t a single player in this game who’s main strategy of dealing with status condition in this game is “I’m going to rely on teammates all the time”. There is nothing wrong with players who want to support others, but Aromatherapy is simply too niche to really bother with. Yes, it’s unique that it can support teammates but what’s the point of carrying Aromatherapy whenever the person you’re in a dungeon with uses Refresh or Heal Bell (Hypothetically buffed Heal Bell)? It’d be pointless.

Buffing Heal Bell is a much needed change this game needs, but you can’t buff one move and ignore the other. All three moves share the exact same mechanics and description in the PMD games.

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I have no issues with giving each move drawbacks (PP, range) and with added effects that make them different from another. But I firmly believe that if they all shared the same primary effect (Healing the player’s entire team from status) that’d be best for the game.

As of right now Refresh can heal other player’s Pokemon as well when they’re sharing the same tile. I don’t think it’d be an issue at all if they all did that.

Since Aromatherapy was proposed to have an extra effect that it normally doesn’t, I think it’s okay to propose other effects that the moves have. Here is what I’m thinking.

  • Refresh

Due to it’s one tile range, I think that this move should heal conditions such as confusion. (Possibly increase this to a one tile AOE like Cut, the way I imagine it is the Pokemon is reaching out and physically touching those it’s healing). This would heal the player’s entire team and any other party members in range. I think 30 PP would be good for this move due to it’s limited range.

  • Heal Bell

Blizzard range, Low PP (I would say 10) It’s “extra” effect (If we want to add those) could be that it removes negative stat boosts. It would have the highest range since it’s a “Sound”. One of the drawbacks of this move is that it’d be unable to heal party members whose Pokemon has the Soundproof ability.

  • Aromatherapy

Range similar to that of Dazzling Gleam, since “Aromas” usually don’t spread as far as sound. It’d have 15 PP. I honestly can’t think of another effect that could be given to this move, except for the possibility of.

In general, I just believe that neither move should be stuck to “Party member only” It’s simply too niche of a move. I can’t emphasize that enough, that it would never get used. Especially if Heal Bell was buffed and Aromatherapy wasn’t, you’d find less people who need to have someone support them and it’s already extremely non-existent usage would go even further down the drain.

2 Likes
15

If Heal Bell is changed like how my proposal is, then this not only gives more options like you want, but it also keeps the niche. Heal Bell, in this case, is just better Refresh and more pokemon learn it. That’s why I proposed it be changed the way it is.

I acknowledged that Heal Bell was most likely going to be chosen as it’s probably going to be seen as the “most optimal”, but I don’t think it leaves the others in the dust especially if we only give it 10 PP or, now that I think about it, maybe only 5 PP. I suppose you could say “people are only ever gonna use it that many times” which is fine. If someone is soloing they’re more likely gonna pick Refresh because it has more PP, heals their whole team, and saves on ethers. That’s why I proposed Heal Bell gets a PP nerf and Refresh stays the same (I think it has 30 PP?).

Give Aroma the unique aspect of healing Volatile status ailments in addition to healing status ailments and it becomes more useful than Heal Bell and Refresh in certain situations. Attract and Confusion can be pretty devastating if you’re unfortunate enough to get surrounded. Perish Song is also a thing. Heal Bell and Refresh can’t do anything about those and with the way I’m proposing this, won’t do anything about those.

I guess the uh, 29% of people who voted on this thread are no one? XP I know I’m being facetious, but obviously, someone out there uses the moves like that. Making them all affect only you takes away a unique teamwork aspect of the game. We go from “as your teammate, I can beat up pokemon for you and heal you if something goes wrong” to “I can beat up pokemon for you, but you’re on your own for healing.” I suppose you could say “just use Safeguard, there’s your teamwork” and fair enough, but buffing Aromatherapy like I previously mentioned would prevent Whimsicott from infiltrating your argument.

Buffing Aroma as I mentioned solves this and gives it use over Heal Bell and Refresh.

I don’t think “We should do it because the game does it” is a solid argument. Using the same philosophy PMD does with its games will only give us the same problems PMD has.

I want to buff Aromatherapy too. If anything the flaw you correctly pointed out in my argument wasn’t with my angle on Aromatherapy, it was with Refresh. ;) But I think the superior PP gives it enough of an edge, especially if we nerf Heal Bell to 10 or 5 PP. Maybe Refresh can cure stat downs as well and have that be unique to it. That would give it use over Heal Bell.

This is all, of course, neglecting the fact that Refresh already does what Heal Bell is supposed to do in this proposal if people stand on top of one another anyway. So if this proposal goes forward, that should probably be changed.

16

That isn’t enough alone to use it though, it will only affect teammates. Can you really tell when one of your party members has been afflicted with Attraction? Sure confusion maybe, but is it really worth carrying a whole move just for a condition that can be cured by 5 seconds of holding any arrow key? By the time you realize your friend is confused, switch to the Pokemon that has Aromatherapy and use the move they’re going to be naturally cured already. Plus keep in mind how many players use the Weather Rocks alongside Gems which prevent confusion. No matter what you change about it, if Aromatherapy doesn’t heal the user’s team members it will not get used.

Just because they voted “They should do different things” doesn’t mean that they use the moves. Also it’s 15 total votes. You’re using 29% to try and make it seem like an inflated number. 29% of 15 is 4.35. We’ll round that down to 4 people who voted for that option. The option “They should do different things” could be implying they want the moves to be changed entirely. Not specifically “Yes Aromatherapy should be a Party Heal only”

On average there are about 30-40 players assuming there isn’t an event. Do you seriously mean to tell me that 12 (it’s 11.6 but rounding up) of them (29% of 40) are using Aromatherapy for the sole purpose of supporting allies?

The point “It’s how the games do it” is perfectly fine and a perfectly fine reason to change the moves. They’re on an evening playing field in the main games so why should one move be eons better than another in PMU? Again, I’m fine with they get added effects but they should all be on an even playing field. Healing all four of the users Pokemon is the bare minimum these moves should do.

Aromatherapy healing only party members but having a high PP doesn’t matter when again, NO ONE uses the move for that purpose. I’ve played this game for about 7 years now. I have not once seen a single player besides myself (out of sheer desperation and hope that the moves would be changed, I was young and my mentality behind it was if I can make people remember the moves exist I could get them changed) use the moves Aromatherapy or Heal Bell. What’s the point of a move having 100 PP even whenever it’s completely useless.

I really want to know why you think the niche reason of a move that heals allies status conditions, even confusion and others would get used whenever every other player already carries: Rest, Refresh, and Hypothetically Heal Bell.

Sure yea, you’d be fixing Heal Bell but you wouldn’t be fixing Aromatherapy. Only half the problem would be solved.

What do you think about screwing over players who want to use Pokemon such as Ribombee, Parasect, Sawsbuck, or Vileplume as a cleric? Are they just supposed to accept that fact?

2 Likes
17

Quoting what Kaen said. This is what’s really important. And that’s exactly how they work in the main series PMD games.

I’d be completely fine with Heal Bell and Aromatherapy’s party healing effects being removed if it meant they’re just clones of Refresh (Not only because the moves were never used for that purpose but because it’d put them all on an even playing field. As of right now Refresh heals the users team AND Party members who are standing on the same tile). Them having different ranges/pp/and extra effects is just a bonus.

It would simply give players the opportunity to use their favorite Pokemon in the ways they want to. Which in turn leads to more fun. It’s not fun to be restricted in terms of what you can and can’t use.

Again I really think “Testing” phases would be appreciated here. We could test the moves working like clones of Refresh for a week or two, test them working in other proposed ways as well.

2 Likes
18

And similar should be done with Aromatherapy, because again, team diversity should be the primary factor to take into consideration here when it comes to adapting the functions of these moves, as they have a broader field of impact, and we should be trying to promote that the best we can where this topic is concerned. There is no real reason why we should be cutting corners or creating this false middle ground with the situation, one is not equal to the other in impact, keeping several moves largely unique isn’t as important as aiding in the diversification of team compositions, which are vastly more complex and allow for a much larger pool of creative and unique interactions. And all that withstanding we can still make the moves have unique aspects while sharing just one base similarity, as shown with your suggestion for Heal Bell, and frankly without the team heal function the remaining move is just going to be dismissed like it already is as some overly niche move not worth using which is frankly worse than just being similar, it’ll be wholly irrelevant. Perhaps give Aromatherapy a team heal (regains hp) alongside its cleanse, which is a mechanic I’m not sure any other move in the game has presently and would certainly give it that flavor you seem to still want these moves to maintain.

2 Likes
19

I was thinking more about the moves and what they could potentially be changed to. Here is my proposal. I’m more than welcome to constructive criticism. Personally I still prefer the simpler “Make them all Refresh clones” route but I’m trying to go with the idea of giving each move something to make them unique since that seems to be what players want.

  • Refresh

30 PP
1 Tile AOE
Heals the user’s team and the team of any party member within the one tile radius

(So for example. I’m in a dungeon with someone. They have two Pokemon that are burnt. They stand next to my Politoed who uses Refresh. Both their Pokemon are cured of burn)

Bonus Effect: SMALL percentage of HP healing for the user’s team. (This would have to be tweaked, I’m not sure if the healing should be that good. Does 5-10% sound balanced?. I’m trying to make the HP healing more of a bonus rather than what the move is intended for) The HP healing would not affect allies (or least I don’t think it should. I feel like it’d be a bit broken if it did, what do you all think?)

I believe this would be good for it. The low range is there because all depictions of Refresh involve the Pokemon making physical contact with those it’s healing. The ally heal is already the case, we’d just be increasing it’s range slightly. I think the HP healing compensates for the low range.

  • Heal Bell

10 PP
Range remains unchanged
Heals the User’s entire team and Ally’s currently selected Pokemon (NOT THEIR ENTIRE TEAM)

Bonus Effect: Removes stat debuffs from team & ally’s that were hit by the move.

Due to the wide variety of Pokemon that can learn the move, I tried making this one the weakest. I think I the PP may be a little too low but again I’m open for input on my ideas. I also think that healing the entire party of allies it hits is a bit much, but I might be wrong. I tried making that something unique to Refresh so those who truly do like Pokemon such as Altaria get something in compensation.

  • Aromatherapy

15 PP
4 Tile AOE
Heals the User’s entire team and Ally’s currently selected Pokemon. (NOT THEIR ENTIRE TEAM)

Bonus Effect: Also heals volatile status conditions such as confusion and infatuation.

I was considering giving this move the HP Healing affect and Refresh the volatile status healing, but I decided that aesthetically and move wise it just doesn’t make much sense. However I think healing confusion does. I was also considering allowing this one to heal allies’ entire teams like I did with Refresh but again I want to try and keep them different from one another. (So for example with this hypothetical buffed Aromatherapy: I’m in a dungeon with someone two of their Pokemon is burnt. They stand near my Vileplume as it uses Aromatherapy and now both their Pokemon are cured of the burn)

Anyway, these are just proposed changes that I had rattling around in my head. They probably require a bit more balancing but I’m mainly posting this for input and to get ideas flowing. Please let me know what you think. I get that I’m practical flooding this thread with replies but it’s a change I’d really like to see implemented into the game, and a healthy one at that.

3 Likes
20

I appreciate the effort of compromise, so although I still disagree with making them all clones, allow me to throw my two cents into that as well. I’m also posting from a phone, I have work and I most likely won’t be able to make my typical essay responses. I read all your posts and I do unfortunately have counters to them. XP But I thought this would be more relevant to reply on.

I don’t think giving any of these a heal, even a chance at a small one, is a good idea, because not only is that going to make one superior over the other, regardless of what the others do, we’re now starting the slippery slope into Morning Sun, Moonlight, and Softboiled territory, and we’re already trying to balance so much as it is. The heal also needs to be significant enough to justify the chance, not just be there so it doesn’t overshadow the other two moves.

So how about this? This is assuming all of them act as Refresh originally does.

  • Refresh: 30 PP, Original Range, heals Non-Volatile ailments and Stat Downs, doesn’t apply to Party Members.

To be honest, I don’t think stat downs really hinder people too much, considering the availability of Wonder Tiles, but there’s always the convenience. I’m still of the mind that Refresh should have superior PP to all of them, since Refresh is more of a solo support move and is probably the most widely used due to the pokemon everyone uses. Refresh, even through all of this, is fine as it is I think and doesn’t need too much of a buff. I do still think that it needs to only apply to yourself and change the fact that it can hit others if you stand right on top of someone using Refresh in order for this to work.

  • Aromatherapy: 10 PP, 4-Tile Range all around, Heals Volatile and Non Volatile statuses, Heals selected pokemon of party members.

Aka just Stormy’s idea but with the PP slightly more nerfed to account for the fact it has more range and heals the most ailments out of the three.

  • Heal Bell: 15 PP, 2-Tile Range (Dazzling Gleam/Dark Pulse range), Heals teams of all party members of Non-Volatile ailments and Slows.

Aka Refresh on steroids. You could argue this still makes it preferred over Aromatherapy and Refresh, but since all the moves are doing the same thing now anyway, that’s less relevant. I also buffed the PP, because it does less than Aromatherapy now.

What do you guys think of that?

1 Like