How are these two supposed to interact? I’ve heard conflicting responses and it would seem some dungeons are inconsistent about it as well.
Just my opinion but to me the interaction should be as so:
Trap Scarf doesn’t activate any traps but still triggers the secret room event, showing the golden secret room staircase.
From what I understand as well secret rooms aren’t even completely classified as traps and are thus also immune to Trapbust and See-Trap Orbs. Which makes me question if there are any scenarios where the expected interaction is not the current interaction. Could you provide examples of dungeons which have unexpected interactions?
To be more precise, it would seem you and I have the same idea on how it should work, and I’m pretty sure that’s how it works in most if not all cases already.
So why the thread? Well, I’ve recently been told by a member of the staff team they remember otherwise, so I’d like some clarification on what the actual consensus from the team as a whole is. If it’s supposed to deny secret room triggering (Which I believe to be excessive, especially when stat drops are fixed and that adds yet another downside to the scarf) then that is something I want to discuss.
But before I can really get to any of that, I need to know what it’s actually supposed to do, hence a thread here rather than in suggestions.
Secret Rooms are indeed set via trap data behind the scenes. The scarf and orbs are just programmed to exclude SRs from being considered as traps.
We are considering options for balancing the Trap Scarf but having it ignore secret rooms entirely is… hm, excessive
In that case, if I may ask, why is the trap scarf on the table for a re-balance?
As is, the only downside for most held items is an opportunity cost. The trap scarf is however an exception, blocking the holder from triggering wonder tiles. (Which may not matter now, but will be a rather dangerous detriment once stat drops below 0 are functioning) Is there some specific aspect of the scarf that’s been deemed problematic?
The team believes it reduces the challenge provided to the player at nearly no cost. That it’s broken – and easily accessible to boot. The mentality has turned into “why use x when you can just use trap scarf.”
We’re open to ideas on how to consider balancing the scarf, whether it involves the mechanics of the scarf itself or how it’s obtained and distributed.
Some I’ve personally heard – and bear in mind that doesn’t mean I condone any or all of them:
- Making trip traps override the scarf
- Preventing running while the trap scarf is held
- Giving the scarf a limited number of uses until it becomes “torn” and turns into a regular scarf (eg. 250 traps blocked, or 30 dungeon runs, etc)
You get the idea.
Are there any metrics behind this to show that is an actual trend or is that just personal conjecture? As far as I’m aware when I do dungeons I carry a number of situational items for dungeons that I trade on and off as the situation demands, and depending on how efficient I like to be. Stamina band for periods where I might be in a supply stint, or in a rather larger dungeon, mobile scarf for item retrieval/escapes/speeding, x-ray specs for locating enemies when farming a specific pokemon or leveling, trap scarf for hidden stairs or if I’m just feeling casually exploring a dungeon, and a heal ribbon for tanking through more npc dense dungeons. I’ve never felt any of these items particularly exclusionary to any other item, and none preform highly enough to override the rest in a blanket progression path. Frankly all those solutions sound like they’d just make people stop using the scarf full stop, unless of course you plan to place similarly unpleasant restrictions of varying means on all the other valuable equip items and it’s part of some broader rebalancing effort that makes everything less effective.
And most other held items “reduce the challenge provided to the player” at nearly no cost by giving the player some manner of advantage with no explicit downside. There is however an opportunity cost to choosing any specific item, as I believe Kaen just outlined nicely. To top it all off, the trap scarf, unlike nearly every other item in the game has a built-in downside already.
While I won’t pretend I’m not highly critical of all three of these, I greatly appreciate them being brought up for discussion rather than just quietly implemented out of the blue. I’ll address each individually.
Trip traps probably deserve their own thread, but overall I think a case can be made for them being poorly implemented but kept in their current state to try and counteract the decreasing rarity of many held items. I’ve tried to have a have a conversation about this problem as a whole but unfortunately despite all my attempts that topic’s died in the water again.
This seems like an attempt to simply make the scarf 100% unviable. I’m not sure what else I can really say other than it seems hideously excessive.
This I believe represents a direction in the design philosophy of PMU (And by extension PMD) that I think we should be trying to move away from due to the game’s MMO status. I’d much rather items like the trap scarf be difficult to obtain but difficult to lose rather than easy to obtain and easy to lose with the same power level. This helps build a feeling of accomplishment and thus investment into the game, and is likely to help keep people playing so long as the core gameplay loop of PMU is intact (Being obtaining and training new pokemon)
Now, with all that out of the way, let’s talk about what I do agree is currently wrong with the trap scarf. As part of a larger problem regarding endgame item rarity, I can 100% agree it’s one of the items far too easy to obtain right now, and would totally back it being removed from the dark market and perhaps one of CC/SVD. (Preferably the latter, to give the former more reasons to be run despite its lack of exp) 200 ekop is maybe 1-2 runs of CS, so it’s definitely a bit bizarre an item on par with stuff like the tight belt and mobile scarf can be obtained so easily. (I touched on this subject in a more general sense in my other thread: The State of PMU's Economy)
Once again though, I greatly appreciate being able to have this discussion at all.
The examples I listed are just that – examples, ideas; not decisions set in stone. That’s what these forums are for.
Removing the scarf from some of its more easily to obtain areas is another potential option. The issue with that is the damage is already done – those who have the scarf will hang onto it, and due to its nature it’s nearly impossible to lose. I do agree we need to remove overlap in obtainables as a whole as mentioned in the economy post.
Personally I think for an MMO a forgiving durability mechanism wouldn’t be all that bad. Of course it wouldn’t apply to solely the trap scarf if implemented, but to the majority of equipment in the end. As a result of having a defined number of uses these items would be more difficult to lose. Not impossible, but much harder. And when some of these items break, you’d have a chance at restoring them for a bit of poké – think Used TMs from Sky as an indirect example.
Again these are ideas, not facts. The possibilities are beyond what I’ve only listed and we’d like to hear everyone’s ideas
Yeah, this is a far more effective means of discussing potential changes than the discord’s general channel or ingame global chat. It’s a shame I’ve heard so many players flat-out state they refuse to use forum software of any type.
Ah, but this was something I’ve already proposed a potential solution to as well.
Perhaps if this were a feature of the game at launch then I would agree. But nothing is going to incite backlash like “Oh, by the way, your items are gonna fall apart now unless you pay up.”
Of course, of course.
On a side note though, is it possible to move parts of a thread into a new one? This new line of discussion probably belongs in Suggestions and Contributions now, I would assume.
Typically any type of change that removes something will incite backlash, regardless of how much. So I get that. You can always give more with ease, but never take away without difficulty.
Have replied to the quoted proposal in its own thread.
+ Yes, when composing a reply it’s possible to reply to the thread as a linked topic:
Since the discussion is a bit mixed and splitting entire posts would read as out of context in the new thread, I’ll do that and quote the relevant bits
I think that the Trap Scarf works fine as is. If someone wants more of a challenge, then it’s up to them to not use it. We can’t make the game difficult for everyone because some players cannot resist the temptation of making it easier. This would be unfair.
Example: I have stopped using Altaria because weather control was making the dungeons very easy. I did not suggest removing c9. Gems and crystals also make dungeoning easy. This doesn’t mean they need to be removed. I choose not to use them in order to make the game more challenging for myself.
Traps are very frequent and spawn at random locations, which might literally trap you or force you to walk over them. I do not see the harm in an item that protects you from the overabundance of traps. Like I said, if you find it too easy then refrain from using it xD
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