Tailwind Adjustment

Tailwind currently is functioning similarly to how it does in the main game, boosting the speed stat to all allies. This not only makes the move completely or almost completely useless, as some swear the speed stat barely, if at all does anything, but is not following what according to bulbapedia, Tailwind does in the traditional Pokemon Mystery Dungeons. image
Several other pokemon moves of similar effects have already received this treatment it seems odd that tailwind hasn’t. I personally don’t see this being that overpowered compared to beat up and pre-existing support moves, but it will certainly add more color and flavor to pokemon, and certainly the move. I know I feel bad when I run with friends, and I have 4x speed and they can’t keep up, a supporting move like this would help I’d feel, and works to and alternative to beat up.

Please let me know how you feel.

  • Remain as is
  • Boost movement speed
0 voters
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I vote to boost the movement speed, I don’t see any reason why it should remain the same. I’m all for more support options being added to the game. Using it to give your teammates a speed boost in dungeons will be nice.

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I agree that tailwind needs some work right now, but speed boosts do do things. the higher the speed, the faster you recover from hit-stun and the faster you can attack. this is why even though I love trapinch I don’t use them. because their speed is so bad that you can be hit while spamming a move and then from there depending on how many enemies are around just die to hit-stun before you can attack again. personally, I’d love it tailwind did both, but that’d be pretty over powered, being able to zoom about and hit as fast as furry swipes with an aoe from one pp usage.

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I would like to add just one caveat; I don’t think Tailwind should be stackable with itself, as to differentiate it from being a strictly better Agility. Otherwise I’m totally behind it being changed to a movement speed increase.

It could also wear off after some time, but I feel that would instead leave it largely unused.

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I agree that it should wear off, I actually think that all the speed buffs should wear off after sometime maybe? And as for Agility, this actually made me do some research, because I had forgotten but, apparently, according to bulbapedia’s page on agility:
image

Agility actually functions the same way, so this begs the real question shouldn’t both moves be changed?

I highly disagree, unless we want to further widen the divide between crystals and the rest of gameplay. Having to spend a moveslot + spend 2 turns idle every floor is plenty fair for agility IMO.

I really do not like “it was this way in PMD so we should change it” as an argument. While the source games may of course offer plenty of material to work with, simply be opting for real-time combat PMU is its own beast.

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That’s in response to the fall off?

Yes, for both tailwind and agility.

Agility is also fine as a single-target move that can be stacked with itself, IMO.

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If you feel that way and believe that the moves are too under-powered, maybe for balance than for single target speed boosts might I suggest immediately boosting to 4x speed? For example, Atomize, rock polish, ect. Well Agility, and Tailwind are AoE but solely 2x Speed. Sounds fair to me, this could include agility if you and of course the staff prefer it as a single target, however that isn’t how it functions normally.

Not lasting for the entire floor is a massive, massive nerf that I can guarantee will smother any remaining use these moves could have, regardless of how many players they affect.

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I was only agreeing with that if you, and others were supposing these changes to be overpowered, if you see no problems with this and believe this is fair, so do I, I am not entirely pro fall off I’d prefer it not, but am willing it accept it as a balance.

Edit: Anyone know why all of a sudden this thread didn’t have an option to vote naturally, and then it did? I didn’t change anything, I’d prefer to keep it just the poll I already had.

I’m guessing Andy may have changed a setting in the backend to do with polls overriding the voting system.

But that’s just my uneducated guess.

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I agree that Tailwind should affect travel speed and have been advocating this for a while. It’s a little OP that it buffs party members, so maybe it can give only +1 speed. This will make the move useful and more people can use it. Travel speed has been nerfed anyway so why not. I don’t think that anyone is using Tailwind as is.

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Coming from your post in this thread regarding Autotomize buffing movement speed, I have to disagree with Tailwind specifically for multiple reasons.

Yes, Tailwind does buff movement speed in the main games, however, since PMU mechanics are quite different from the main games, I feel like a party move that buffs movement speed would be broken. Every time you load onto a floor, if you’re with a party, everyone would be able to get up to x4 speed by just using one button. You can clear floors entirely extremely quickly, and use it whenever you want to. That removes a lot of the game, as well as making the game seem a lot less difficult overall if you were to run with others who had that move. Looking at it alone, it definitely would be overpowered in a sense that it makes the game too easy and you can clear floors too quickly.

You mentioned how you felt like it wouldn’t be as overpowered as moves such as Beat Up. Let’s look at Beat Up on its own.

Beat Up warps every party member to the same room as the user. Say, you were to find the stairs before everyone else, you can use Beat Up to warp everyone there and continue with the dungeon. It’s handy, and in some dungeons, it does defeat a lot of difficulty that it may have. However, when you compare these moves, there are a lot of things that Tailwind does have that Beat Up does not. For one, Beat Up only warps others to the same room as you. When using Tailwind, everyone gets that speed buff, so if you’re in a dungeon for experience, everyone can quickly clear floors and simply move to the stairs and repeat. Beat Up can’t do that. You couldn’t practically use Beat Up on every single room, so that you can just warp everyone quickly throughout the floor, there’s not enough PP for that. Speaking of PP, Beat Up only has 18. Tailwind has 25. If you’re in a dungeon that has 60 floors, you would only have to use a PP item on that Tailwind pokemon twice throughout the entire dungeon (if it were, say, a max PP healing item). With Beat Up, you’d have to use at least 3 max healing PP items, and another healing PP item (like a Leppa Berry or an Ether), so you have a lot more opportunities to use Tailwind than Beat Up without using as many resources. I’d also like to add that it “wearing off”, would still not be much of an issue just because it has so much PP. It still would have those problems of the move being too OP.

But that’s not the only problem between Beat Up and Tailwind. Let’s take a look a how many pokemon get each move and the methods of obtaining them.

18 pokemon (including evolutions) get Beat Up. Beat Up is either learned by level up or by egg move. 100 pokemon get Tailwind (not including legendaries). Tailwind can be learned by level up, egg moves, AND by tutors with the use of green shards. This means that a lot more pokemon have access to a move like this, a status move with 25 PP that gives every party member double movement speed. I have a hard time agreeing that this move isn’t more overpowered than Beat Up, and other moves of the like (like ally switch, another move that’s obtained by tutor, but it only warps one pokemon instead of everyone, and you yourself are also warped).

I just couldn’t see this move working this way in PMU, it brings up a lot of problems with difficulty and overall mechanics in the game.

When I look at Autotomize, I’d like to imagine it has the same effect as moves such as Agility and Rock Polish; it is a single target move that buffs speed. Since there are other moves like that, and not a lot of pokemon get Autotomize (obtaining by level up and egg move only), I think it would be a lot more fair to at least buff that over something so universal, like Tailwind

We discussed that there are ways to balance it though, primarily and most likely a fall off, since thats what balances it in the main series. It’s also not really that broken in a combat sense, (It’s nothing compared to attack speed) and a lot of pokemon can get 4x speed very easily without it, so I don’t full understand why you make it seem like the end of the world. Honestly, it’s more useful for running with new players or with one of the few pokemon that can’t get 4x speed, like it was said before, using a mon with 4x speed well playing with new players SUCKS which has led to an overuse of beat up. Honestly reducing PP or adding a fall off would fix those issues, and still leave it relatively inferior to beat up. I only see it really being useful it what was previously mentioned and HC, and HC needs more meta mons, the options are relatively limited.

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I don’t really know why you brought up attack speed, since it’s a completely different topic altogether.
Just because “a lot of other pokemon” get it easily without it, doesn’t mean every other pokemon should as well. A lot less pokemon get x4 speed than that amount of pokemon that can learn Tailwind. I don’t think there’s a real reason to just slap it on every other pokemon just because others have access to it. I’m not saying it’s the end of the world, I just don’t think it helps balance the game.

I’m not exactly sure I understand the point you’re making in regards to new players. Are you saying that we should give Tailwind x4 speed because it’s a hassle trying to play with others who don’t have it? I’m not quite sure I see why that is a valid reason to change how this move works. With Beat Up, I can see a few ways where it can be broken (in a dungeon like HT for example, where it’s actively supposed to be hard and the party is supposed to struggle through the floors), but in casual dungeons, it’s really just a means to let players get to the stairs quicker. Of course, when playing with new players, this can be exploited, but we can’t prevent people from playing the game like that, since this is just the mechanic of the move itself.

If they were to change how Tailwind functions, PP would be one of the things I’d like to see nerfed. I still don’t think it helps balance the game at all, but I’d at least like to see PP lowered.

I don’t know what you mean by “HC needs more meta mons”. I don’t really see what it even has to do with this original point.

Perhaps as another suggestion, we could let Tailwind only effect your entire team rather than everyone in your party? I feel like moves that only effect yourself are a lot easier to balance out than party effecting moves.

If it were to effect the entire people in the room like beatup did, the main argument you would probably get from the staff team is that “It would defeat the whole reason of existence of quick orb and quick seed.”

cuz yeah, apparently, there are people who would fill their bags with quick orb and quick seed so-

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So is movement speed, that is why people use movement speed, that is why people want this.

Like I said we were talking about a fall off earlier, plus as Peepo said only a 100 mons get it, and thats including evolutions, thats certainly far from every pokemon.

It’s balanced in main PMD, and is definitely not overused, I don’t see why it would be overused if it was changed to match.

Leo was even worried earlier about it being too underpowered compared to crystals if a fall off was introduced, so I fail to see how it would be a game-changer in that aspect besides giving a currently useless move actual applicability whether you choose to use it or not.
Taking the turns to refresh it or even apply it in the first place are valuable turns that could get the caster killed, which make speed boosting moves in general weaker than crystals, and quickseeds/orbs which can be hotkeyed.

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Movement speed doesn’t only allow players to get to stairs quicker, it allows players to clear floors extremely quicker, too (which helps with training), as I said in one of my previous posts. There’s more to movement speed than just to “get to the stairs faster”, unlike just Beat Up alone, which is its only real purpose.

100 pokemon vs the small 18 that Beat Up gets is extremely significant. I hope you realize that it’s actually a pretty large number of pokemon that learn this move.

Again, PMD’s mechanics are a lot different than PMUs, and shouldn’t always be compared. This would be overused simply because of how useful movement speed is overall as a mechanic.

Keep in mind that items like Crystals are far harder to obtain than a move like Tailwind. Tailwind is still extremely powerful as a move, even with a fall off, as it could simply just be used again and again whenever you’d want to use it. Just because it’s not as strong as those items doesn’t make it balanced by any means.

I guess I can also add that items like quick seeds and orbs are still only one use. You’d be a lot better off just not bringing those and bringing more PP healing items so you can continue to spam Tailwind.

I don’t fully understand your argument though, and I disagree with what I do understand past on experiences personally, and what I’ve witnessed the clear meta be in the past and present. The whole “a lot of pokemon get it so it should be garbage” just doesn’t sit well, especially considering how many pokemon get heatwave… And heatwave clears a lot of faster, if anything Movement speed makes pokemon with limited range clearly almost as fast, you talk about it like it needs to be hyper-balancing when PMUs balance in general is off, PMDs balance is off. If tailwind changes are implemented and it becomes the most broken thing ever and speeds up clears by a significant amount then it can always just be changed again, but I don’t see it being that broken happening at all. I am sure we can find a happy medium between actually useful and what it is now, because it’s kinda just a wasted move, that isn’t in such condition in the main series of both pokemon and PMD entries.

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